Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

[Bill Latchford]

- IceMan - I am not saying "Save Ice Mountain" is doing anything wrong. I am just stating don't get into that type of a whinning match. When you get to the point of just trying to knit pick every little thing it makes it harder to look at this thing without thinking people are starting to get petty. Keep up your good fight without taking it to a level you think the oposition is going. We look to this forum for information and good debate...not for petty he said she said garbage. That is all I meant by it. As long as both don't go down the whinning road there is still hope for this topic. :thumb:

[80cobra]

As I said before I could care less about the bats that does'nt make me a bad person I just dont care about the bats, sorry , good thing you people do. Lets just leave it at that, this is the wind mill forum not the bat forum.

[Ice Man]

this is the wind mill forum not the bat forum.

Unfortunately, there is a relationship, because industrial wind turbines on forested ridges in the Appalachians have been shown to kill 50-100 bats per turbine per year. Since it will take 4,000 industrial-scale turbines to produce just 10% of PA's electricity demand, if, as is now occurring, most or all of these industrial turbines are installed on PA's forested ridges, we can expect the deaths of 200,000 to 400,000 bats annually in PA. Since bats are long-lived and have only 1 pup per year, that level of mortality is not sustainable. Combined with the disease that is wiping out bat colonies in many parts of the east, it is likely that many species of bats will become extinct within the next quarter century. So what? Read the Patriot-News article on p. 99 of this forum or contact Dr. Michael Gannon of Penn State Altoona at mrg5@psu.edu. "I don't care" doesn't qualify as research.

[SoccerMom]

Unfortunately, most people don't care about environmental issues or sustainability until it affects them personally, and by then its too late. Why should you care about you or one of your family members contracting a disease like West Nile virus from a mosquito?

The United States has approximately 200 documented species of mosquitoes and Pennsylvania has about 60 species. Each year diseases transmitted by mosquitoes (such as malaria, yellow fever, dengue and filarial worms) kill or debilitate millions of people, mostly in developing countries located in tropical areas. In Pennsylvania, the risk of contracting a mosquito-borne disease has recently increased with the introduction of West Nile virus. In 1999, 62 people in the New York City metropolitan area were hospitalized with West Nile encephalitis, previously only found in Africa, Eastern Europe, Middle East, and West Asia. Seven of those people, all elderly, died. Good reasons to care about the bats, I think.

[150thBucktailCo.I]

Unfortunately, most people don't care about environmental issues or sustainability until it affects them personally, and by then its too late.

EXACTLY!

Talk about "short-sightedness" ... and that issue has a lot to do with the current problems we face both nationally and economically now in this country!

[80cobra]

As I said before I DONT CARE ABOUT BATS , you care thats good , that doesn't mean I don't like other animals. I don't like snakes either. Does that make me evil? You don't like bugs or mosquitos, what's the difference? I don't think you're evil. Thats my personal feelings ,am I trying to force feed you my opinion,no .So dont try to force feed me yours. I dont go out and just kill these creatures , I just dont care about them.

[banksy]

Unfortunately, most people don't care about environmental issues or sustainability until it affects them personally, and by then its too late. Why should you care about you or one of your family members contracting a disease like West Nile virus from a mosquito?

The United States has approximately 200 documented species of mosquitoes and Pennsylvania has about 60 species. Each year diseases transmitted by mosquitoes (such as malaria, yellow fever, dengue and filarial worms) kill or debilitate millions of people, mostly in developing countries located in tropical areas. In Pennsylvania, the risk of contracting a mosquito-borne disease has recently increased with the introduction of West Nile virus. In 1999, 62 people in the New York City metropolitan area were hospitalized with West Nile encephalitis, previously only found in Africa, Eastern Europe, Middle East, and West Asia. Seven of those people, all elderly, died. Good reasons to care about the bats, I think.

It makes sense to be more aware when it hits home. There are millions of causes around the world which need attention. We can't be privy to all of them as an individual. It makes sense to deal with the ones that hit home. Your assertion is that we care about nothing UNLESS it hits home. I think that is unfair and very presumptuous. It may be the case for some, but not all.

[SoccerMom]

"Your assertion is that we care about nothing UNLESS it hits home. I think that is unfair and very presumptuous. It may be the case for some, but not all."

Okay, perhaps that's not entirely true. Maybe the best way of putting it isn't that most people don't care, they are simply unaware of the issues and how the decimation of one species will effect everything else.

[Ice Man]

As I said before I DONT CARE ABOUT BATS , you care thats good , that doesn't mean I don't like other animals. I don't like snakes either. Does that make me evil? You don't like bugs or mosquitos, what's the difference?

It's not a question of "liking." It's a matter of "understanding." By reducing the issue to a matter of whether or not you like something you make it sound superficial, arbitrary, and subjective. Counciman Latchford tried to reduce SAVE ICE MOUNTAIN's cause to a similar level early on in this forum when he compared our organization's appreciation of the value of the watershed to "some people like cats, some people like dogs" and followed it up by saying that he didn't value our natural heritage and therefore it's of little importance to him. We've presented you with several articles about the importance of bats to the ecosystem and to the economy of agriculture. Understanding the facts presented in these articles will not necessarily lead to the reader "liking" bats but, to an open-minded reader whose opinion ought to be based on facts, the articles should lead to understanding and appreciation. This is an essential part of research. A few posts ago you said that you like to do your own research. "I don't care" doesn't qualify as research.

[My2Cents]

Thanks Ice Man and Soccermom. Cobra, you don't have to "like" bats, we are just hopeing that you try to understand why they are so valuable and how lucky we are to have them around and why we should do whatever we can to keep them around. There are many diseases out there that are caused by various types of insects. Most of the diseases are contained around the tropics, however, with "global warming" who knows.... here we are confronting "West Nile Virus" in the USA. We certainly do not need the female anopheles mosquito or a tsetse fly moving in... it could very well happen. Last summer I noticed a lot of stagnet water sitting in the hot sun.. I'll not say where, not around town though. Folks just go on by not realizing that it could be a potential breeding ground for disaster. I thought to myself then, I hope the bats were zooming in on that place at night. Don't like 'em if you don't want to, try to understand why we need them, and in turn, just care about that aspect... that's all.

[sandstone]

Thanks Ice Man and Soccermom. Cobra, you don't have to "like" bats, we are just hopeing that you try to understand why they are so valuable and how lucky we are to have them around and why we should do whatever we can to keep them around. There are many diseases out there that are caused by various types of insects. Most of the diseases are contained around the tropics, however, with "global warming" who knows.... here we are confronting "West Nile Virus" in the USA. We certainly do not need the female anopheles mosquito or a tsetse fly moving in... it could very well happen. Last summer I noticed a lot of stagnet water sitting in the hot sun.. I'll not say where, not around town though. Folks just go on by not realizing that it could be a potential breeding ground for disaster. I thought to myself then, I hope the bats were zooming in on that place at night. Don't like 'em if you don't want to, try to understand why we need them, and in turn, just care about that aspect... that's all.

x 2!

Well said, M2C!!

[80cobra]

I never said I did'nt understand about bats. I grew up in the country, I know what they eat . I give all you people all the credit in the world for caring, I just said I do'nt care. M2C I get your point. Thank you Banksy for sticking up for me.Smom if you like to get more people behind your cause try not jumping down thier throats when you write your response.I will give you credit though for dedication to your cause and I respect that. Enough said about the bats. Lets focus on the original issue.Sandman do you have any comments about the letter Terry Hyde wrote in The Herald on saturday.

[sandstone]

Sandman do you have any comments about the letter Terry Hyde wrote in The Herald on saturday.

I just finished a 4-year term as president of Juniata Valley Audubon, a 40-year-old chapter of the National Audubon Society, which is close to 100 years old. Our chapter has 450 members. I now serve as its conservation chair. Terry Wentz is the new president of Juniata Valley Audubon.

My comment regarding Mr. Hyde's (or Dr. Jekyll's) "information" is the same as the comment you made above: "Let's focus on the original issue." Mr. Hyde's only reference to industrial windfarms was his claim that Audubon has not supported any industrial windplant proposal in PA. This is absurd and I'd like to know where he got that information. For example, 3 industrial windplants have been proposed in Blair County: Allegheny Ridge Wind Farm, Chestnut Flats Wind Farm, and Sandy Ridge Wind Farm. Juniata Valley Audubon did not oppose the Allegheny Ridge Wind Farm, does not oppose the proposed Chestnut Flats Wind Farm, but does oppose the proposed Sandy Ridge Wind Farm.

[Something to say]

I found this article very interesting.

THOMAS, W.Va. — Towering up to 228 feet above the Appalachian Mountain ridge, far above the tree line, windmills are lined up like marching aliens from War of the Worlds.

Up close, they emit a high-pitched electrical hum. From a distance of a few hundred yards, their 115-foot blades make a steady whooshing sound as their tips cut through the air at up to 140 mph.

Owned by Juno Beach, Fla.-based FPL Energy, a sister company to Florida Power & Light Co., they are part of the national effort to develop diverse — and more environmentally friendly — sources of energy.

The problem is they're killing thousands of bats a year.

The first wind turbines to generate electricity were erected about 25 years ago in California. But wind power capacity more than doubled from 2000 to 2004, and now turbines are found in 31 states.

Though wind still generates less than 1 percent of the nation's electricity, the Department of Energy has set a goal of raising that to at least 5 percent by 2020. To reach that goal, the American Wind Energy Association estimates it will require an increase from about 16,000 turbines nationwide now to more than 78,000 turbines then.

About 600 of those turbines are planned for West Virginia and Pennsylvania. If they are built, more than 50,000 bats a year could be killed in those two states alone, said Merlin D. Tuttle, founder and president of the Austin-based Bat Conservation International Inc.

He said there are no good estimates of how many bats would be killed nationwide if the association's projection of 78,000 turbines was reached, but he estimated it would be far higher than 50,000.

"They can't sustain that kind of kill rate," Tuttle said, noting that bats are among the slowest-reproducing mammals — generally one pup each year, although some species have two to four.

"Bats are just as important by night as birds are by day," he said. Indeed, bats play an important ecological role by eating mosquitoes and such crop-destroying insects as moths, locusts and grasshoppers.

Contrary to popular belief, bats have quite good vision. That vision is enhanced by a radar-like system known as "echolocation" which helps them "see" in the dark and enables them to zero in on insects as small as a gnat.

A study conducted at FPL's Mountaineer Wind Energy Center here this year indicated that its 44 turbines may have caused between 1,300 and 2,000 bat deaths in a six-week period. That study was led by Edward B. Arnett, a scientist with Bat Conservation International, and financed largely by the American Wind Energy Association and its 700 member companies.
During the study, one of the turbines at Mountaineer was out of service. It was the only turbine where no bat fatalities were recorded during the entire period.

That led bat enthusiasts to conclude bats are not colliding with stationary blades, they're being hit by moving blades, said Dan Boone, a wildlife biologist from Bowie, Md., who has joined the fight against new windmill farms on forested mountaintops.


Experts don't know why the mortality rate might be so much higher at wind facilities in the Appalachian Mountains than elsewhere in the country.

It's also unclear precisely why bats are killed by windmills. Among the theories are that the windmills are located in the bats' migratory path; that bats may be attracted by the turbines' humming sound, their flashing lights to warn aircraft, or their tall masts suitable for roosting, or that the short range of the bats' echolocation does not give them enough time to avoid the spinning blades.

The recent Mountaineer study has led to an impasse between bat conservationists and the wind power industry over what to do next.

Conservationists have called for further studies that would disengage some turbines on nights when the wind speed is low, and bats and their prey are more likely to fly.

The wind power industry has rejected that suggestion. It has proposed studies of deterrent measures such as acoustics to discourage bats from approaching the turbines.

"We don't think it makes a whole lot of sense to be focusing on a solution that potentially could reduce the amount of power that is generated and potentially put stress on the machines," said Steve Stengel, an FPL Energy spokesman.

"We think there needs to be a great deal of effort put into finding ways for bats and wind turbines to coexist," he said.

The wind power industry echoes the views of FPL Energy,( of course ) according to Tom Gray, deputy executive director of the American Wind Energy Association.

Because wind power companies have been trying to produce energy more cheaply, any proposal that would reduce generating capacity and drive up costs would give the industry "heartburn," Gray said.

( so much for putting a great deal of effort into finding ways for bats and turbines to coexist )


Acoustical deterrent efforts currently are in the design stage and may be tested in the laboratory by early next year, Arnett said. If preliminary investigations show promise, field tests might take place next year. FPL Energy has offered to allow some of its facilities to be used for such tests.

But Arnett and Boone noted that acoustic efforts to rid houses of bats rarely work, and said they do not believe sound deterrents would be effective in shielding turbines.


Emotions are running high along the Appalachian ridge as more wind farms are being considered.


Opponents argue that the facilities' not only kill bats and disturb other wildlife habitat but also are an eyesore, create noise pollution, startle livestock with the flickering of sunlight through the blades, decrease property values and could harm tourism on scenic mountain ridges.

"I can't say I would forever be against wind power, but as far as windmills on mountaintops, there ought to be more study before they just put up these windmills willy-nilly," said Burch, who is retired from the construction industry. "What happens if, in 10 years, wind energy is not working? Who is going to pay to bring them down? It's going to be the counties and the landowners."


Don Walukas, former borough council president of Meyersdale, Pa., where FPL energy has another wind farm, said he is troubled by the expense of putting up windmills that produce relatively little power.

"I think we have gone through a lot of desecration of our ridge for something that is not worth it," he said. "I sit on my porch and I see those things. What if they have them all over the place? I'm not ready for that."

But Harold Nicholson, chairman of the Meyersdale Windpower Fund Committee — which allocates the roughly $13,000 a year FPL Energy gives to the community in lieu of taxes — said the windmills are "a low-cost, environmentally clean source of electrical power and I support anything that will provide electric power for now and future generations."
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In my opinion ....... and I know I sound like a broken record here, but robbing peter to pay paul doesn't make good sense. If placing wind farms on our mountain ridges is going to harm our planet in any way...aren't we just creating another problem? Love bats, hate bats, whatever, they are an essential part of our ecosystem. With global warming there are more and more disease carrying insects thriving, and with the recent "condition" that's killing bats in the Northeast coupled with bats dying from the wind turbines, it won't be long until we're polluted with the diseases that are killing thousands of children in Africa and other countries on a daily basis. Solution ? Spray MORE insecticides? :huh: Doesn't make sense to me. Wind power might be effective and have it's place, but not on our mountains.

[SoccerMom]

Something to say, thanks for posting. Just like the honey bees, we depend on bats in agriculture. If more expensive insecticides need to be sprayed on fields to keep pest populations under control, you will definitely see another increase in food prices, not to mention the effects of insecticide runoff on our water supply. Farmers, who are already struggling, may be pushed out of the industry altogether.