Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

[Ice Man]

By the way.... I meant to mention this last week. I only wish that folks of all ages could, and/or would, be computer savy enough to get into cyberspace... there is so much out there to learn. It's amazing how you can go to a map and zero right down onto an area and see exactly what the area looks like. Long story short, what I'm getting to... One of last Saturday's letter to the editor in the Tyrone Daily Herald was written by a lady who mentioned that she "chooses to cast her vote for the wind farm." She mentioned something about "two wind mills right smack in the town of Nantucket, MA"... "supplying all the power needed for the school and town buildings as well."
I can understand why she is thinking this way... if they have theirs in the middle of town, why can't we have ours up on Ice Mountain ?? She is also concerned with the fact our town has a huge elderly population and that we will find it difficult to live with water/sewer or tax increases and she believes a wind farm in this area will take care of all that.
I went to Nantucket, MA via cyberspace... in the search box, I put in,
"Nantucket, MA windmills"... what a surprise to see a lot of sites coming up to click onto. I was actually looking/trying to see, and/or find out, (to no avail), how big the wind mills were that were "smack in the middle of town." It was absolutely amazing to read some of those articles.... the people living there ,and around that area, are definitely not happy campers with them being put into that area. I haven't read all the articles, but, they are going thru the same thing that the folks in the areas below us are going thru.... they allowed the windmills to go up and now it's another case of it's too late now. I only wish that there were some way to show some of those articles to Ms. Wilson.... I truly feel she would would have second thoughts on this subject. The people in that area are heartbroken. They too are concerned with all that has happened to their beautiful scenery, the birds, and other wild life in that area. They actually have windmills scattered all over the sound up there.... what a shame.

These small-scale windmills for home, school, business, and farm use don't cause the major problem that Juniata Valley Audubon is worried about, forest fragmentation. Because they can be placed very close to the point of electricity use and because their excess electricity can be stored in batteries for times when it's needed, these small-scale windmills should be a part of our energy mix. These small-scale windmills are VERY different from the 400' behemoths that they're planning on Ice Mountain. I hope that people know this.

[Ice Man]

DEP has concerns about wind farm

February 23, 2008 by Kecia Bal in Johnstown Tribune-Democrat

The state Department of Environmental Protection has issued a letter of deficiencies about the controversial Shaffer Mountain Wind project, The Tribune-Democrat has learned.

The nine-page technical review letter, dated Feb. 19, raises a list of concerns about Gamesa's post-construction stormwater management plan, required to gain DEP's national pollutant discharge elimination system permit.

It reiterates many of the issues raised by citizens in hearings and in comments to the DEP.

The project would place 30 wind turbines atop Shaffer Mountain, a Somerset County ridge that is part of the Allegheny Front.

Aquatic resources and possible environmental impacts have not been sufficiently addressed, the DEP says. Also, the company needs to provide more details on alternative siting of the project, such as a nearby strip mine.

Regional DEP spokeswoman Helen Humphreys said the letter, the first sent to the company in its attempt to gain a permit, is not a permit denial.

"It is an ongoing conversation," she said.

Project Manager Tim Vought said the company is prepared to answer all the questions.

"We are seeing this as an opportunity to make our application more clear," he said. This also gives the company another chance to answer worried residents, Vought said.

The correspondence is part of the back-and-forth that happens during an application for a state permit, Vought added.

"When we build this project, it will be the best we can build," he said.

Property owner Jack Buchan said he and others opposed to the Shaffer Mountain Wind farm's proposed siting see the letter as a move in the right direction.

"They are not disclosing all the wetlands, the limits of the disturbance or where they plan to cross tributaries," Buchan said, adding that "tens of thousands of dollars" have been spent by private citizens to gather input such as expert analysis.

"Not only is it frustrating, it is putting a huge financial burden on a group of people," he said.

Buchan said the issue is at least making state legislators aware of a need for state regulations, such as those in place in West Virginia.

If Gamesa is awarded a permit, Buchan believes it would set a free-for-all precedent at potential industrial wind sites across Pennsylvania.

"If they can permit this - a site with endangered species, exceptional value streams, a migration corridor and golden eagle study - they can go anywhere in the state," he said.

The department also has asked the wind company to provide an update on communication with the Pennsylvania Game Commission, which aired concerns about impacts to important birding areas, bald eagles, spring and fall migration of birds and bats and endangered Indiana bats.

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service also has questioned the company about impacts to Indiana bats and bird migration.

DEP also recommended that Gamesa respond to 22 questions gathered through the department's public comment period. Many of them deal with concerns about water quality, forest fragmentation and wildlife habitat. Gamesa has 60 days to respond.

Web link: http://www.tribune-democrat.com/local/local_story_...

[banksy]

We should rename the site to the Gamesa Discussion Forum

[My2Cents]

Yes, Ice Man, you're right.... I got carried away with the "search." The main reason I went, via computer, was to see if the "wind mills" mentioned above, "smack in the middle of town," were actually the small type. I kinda' assumed they were so, in disbelief, I went looking to make sure.... that's when I ran into the other stuff.
There are still many folks not understanding wind mills, as opposed to wind mills, as opposed to wind turbines, as opposed to wind farms. There are still some folks thinking that some of those small, do-it-yourself'ers in your own back yard, are what we are talking about here. It's getting better, however, some still have no clue about these monstrosities.

[My2Cents]

DEP has concerns about wind farm

February 23, 2008 by Kecia Bal in Johnstown Tribune-Democrat

The state Department of Environmental Protection has issued a letter of deficiencies about the controversial Shaffer Mountain Wind project, The Tribune-Democrat has learned.

The nine-page technical review letter, dated Feb. 19, raises a list of concerns about Gamesa's post-construction stormwater management plan, required to gain DEP's national pollutant discharge elimination system permit.

It reiterates many of the issues raised by citizens in hearings and in comments to the DEP.

The project would place 30 wind turbines atop Shaffer Mountain, a Somerset County ridge that is part of the Allegheny Front.

Aquatic resources and possible environmental impacts have not been sufficiently addressed, the DEP says. Also, the company needs to provide more details on alternative siting of the project, such as a nearby strip mine.

Regional DEP spokeswoman Helen Humphreys said the letter, the first sent to the company in its attempt to gain a permit, is not a permit denial.

"It is an ongoing conversation," she said.

Project Manager Tim Vought said the company is prepared to answer all the questions.

"We are seeing this as an opportunity to make our application more clear," he said. This also gives the company another chance to answer worried residents, Vought said.

The correspondence is part of the back-and-forth that happens during an application for a state permit, Vought added.

"When we build this project, it will be the best we can build," he said.

Property owner Jack Buchan said he and others opposed to the Shaffer Mountain Wind farm's proposed siting see the letter as a move in the right direction.

"They are not disclosing all the wetlands, the limits of the disturbance or where they plan to cross tributaries," Buchan said, adding that "tens of thousands of dollars" have been spent by private citizens to gather input such as expert analysis.

"Not only is it frustrating, it is putting a huge financial burden on a group of people," he said.

Buchan said the issue is at least making state legislators aware of a need for state regulations, such as those in place in West Virginia.

If Gamesa is awarded a permit, Buchan believes it would set a free-for-all precedent at potential industrial wind sites across Pennsylvania.

"If they can permit this - a site with endangered species, exceptional value streams, a migration corridor and golden eagle study - they can go anywhere in the state," he said.

The department also has asked the wind company to provide an update on communication with the Pennsylvania Game Commission, which aired concerns about impacts to important birding areas, bald eagles, spring and fall migration of birds and bats and endangered Indiana bats.

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service also has questioned the company about impacts to Indiana bats and bird migration.

DEP also recommended that Gamesa respond to 22 questions gathered through the department's public comment period. Many of them deal with concerns about water quality, forest fragmentation and wildlife habitat. Gamesa has 60 days to respond.

Web link: http://www.tribune-democrat.com/local/local_story_...

All is so very, very true !! Thank goodness there are people out there catching onto these "motives" now.
There are two things I can think of that should be of concern. Since the lease has not been signed yet... I can see them offering all the good, take care of our mountain things, they have alluded to, and presented so far. I can also see them telling us ... if we allow them in here, and once the wind farm is operational, they will do further studies on the impacts it may have on birds, bats, wildlife, people, things, etc... ie., everything we are talking about here. I hope we do not fall for this so-called, we will take good care of everything before and after scenerio !! If that lease is signed for any reason and/or excuse, we are done !!!We already know what the after effects are going to be... we don't need them (paying someone big money) telling us their scenerio of things after the fact. Then, in turn, us having to spend big money on proving things and cleaning up all that has been broken.
The second thing I can see happening soon... just prior to "the vote" I can see them telling the public what we can do with the money, scaring them into thinking of higher sewer rates, cleaning up the bay, upgrading the sewer system, and other tactics this company may come up with. While, in the meantime, having the public think that these wind turbines are going to save the day.
I do hope I am wrong in thinking this way.

[Something to say]

We should rename the site to the Gamesa Discussion Forum

I agree with ya Banksy. After all these months this discussion keeps going and going and going. I haven't posted in a long while...came in on occasion and read what has been said, and it's repetitive. Bill Latchford has said he isn't even able to vote on this issue and yet he keeps these dedicated people at their keyboards. I read his posts and I'm amazed at the dripping sarcasm he gets away with, while others have been reminded that an account can be banned. The little apples to apples comment was appallingly condescending. Anyway, My2Cents, Sandstone, Ice Man and the rest of ya...good luck with your meeting and petition. I sincerely hope that council members honor your dedication and choose not to ignore the wishes of the people.

[Bill Latchford]

The second thing I can see happening soon... just prior to "the vote" I can see them telling the public what we can do with the money, scaring them into thinking of higher sewer rates, cleaning up the bay, upgrading the sewer system, and other tactics this company may come up with. While, in the meantime, having the public think that these wind turbines are going to save the day.
I do hope I am wrong in thinking this way.

- These fears you mention may not be unfounded My2Cents. If and only if the Council was to grant the Wind Farm its lease by a majority vote, then all those things you mentioned that cost money could potentially benefit from the lease payments thus making these costs lower to the public. Now no one is still yet sure to whether the State will come through with some monies towards the Chesapeake Bay Strategy / Clean Up...but if they don't then the rate payers, could use some help. Is the Wind Farm the only way to generate funds for the Borough? Of course not, But tax and rate increases are also frowned upon. Many small Municipalities in The Commonwealth are being faced with these unfunded mandates. In an odd way the Borough is being offered a way to get some relief from this unfunded burden. If my calculations are correct though it does appear that the Wind Farm lease would only cover about 1/3 of the yearly rate increase to all residential customers. Maybe my math is wrong but if we have 2000 residential customers X $18 (maybe worst case) a month increase X 12 months that is like $432K the Wind Farm lease would only cover around $150K as of the last offer from Gamesa. So Council will have to weigh this out also. Would we want all the monies from the Wind Farm lease to really go toward the clean up The Bay? Hey maybe as conspiracy theories go, Maybe the whole Bay Clean Up Thing was set up to make monies that the Wind Farm developers offer look more beneficial to Municipalities that will be scrambling to find funds to upgrade their WWTP. Honestly I hope I was joking there...It's just as I type things tend to pop into my mind...Even though "SomeThingToSay" thinks I am being sarcastic she would only be about an 1/10 right. I take this entire topic very seriously I just make sure I give out the good information with the bad, whether the bad outweighs the good or not. Someone asks me about the Migratory Map that Dr. Kotala provided us from The National Aviary I tell them about the 30 - 60 mile wide path that they follow and mention that the Eagle has a wing span of 7 feet, and that this particular Wind Farm is around 7 by 3 miles in area. I don't just mention that the Wind Farm will kill Eagles that fly within this corridor. I try to let people know all I know, If they need information I don't know I have directed them towards this board and the Centre Daily Time article, since there has been a great deal of activity there. I don't mention any other sites anymore since they have been mentioned in great depth within this very informative thread on this board. WoW I really jumped around a bit there. I have also mentioned the Public Forum that is coming up that Dr. Kotala has helped to put together. I believe, even though it will be quite biased, that there will be some great information put out. I certainly encourage Council members to attend as I have also encouraged them to attend the Government meeting being sponsored by Logan Township. All this information should help out those that are on the fence hopefully. I will continue to learn from all this as I have been doing all along. It really is not as easy though as some may think. Take Care all

[sammie]

Quoting Bill Latchford here:

"I have also mentioned the Public Forum that is coming up that Dr. Kotala has helped to put together. I believe, even though it will be quite biased, that there will be some great information put out."

You truly are a piece of work, Mr. Latchford. The hardworking, selfless scientists who will be speaking at the forum don't deserve this disgusting remark!

[Ice Man]

Quoting Bill Latchford here:

"I have also mentioned the Public Forum that is coming up that Dr. Kotala has helped to put together. I believe, even though it will be quite biased, that there will be some great information put out."

You truly are a piece of work, Mr. Latchford. The hardworking, selfless scientists who will be speaking at the forum don't deserve this disgusting remark!

The speakers at the SAVE ICE MOUNTAIN public forum are not being paid to give their presentations. Dr. Stan Kotala isn't going to be speaking much at the forum because everyone already knows Juniata Valley Audubon's stance. However, Dan Boone, a wind energy expert, is coming all the way from Bowie, Maryland; Kim van Fleet, an ornithologist with expertise in raptor migration, is coming all the way from Harrisburg; and Laura Jackson, a highly respected environmental educator who has garnered numerous awards and founded Save Our Allegheny Ridges, is coming from Bedford. Their level of dedication and the personal sacrifices that they are making to help other people should not be minimized.

On another note, I ran into Dr. Kotala's daughter at the supermarket yesterday evening and she told me that he had gone to a lecture by the Penn State Department of Nuclear Engineering yesterday and was very excited by what Dr. Brenizer had to say about the future of nuclear energy. I told her to tell her dad to post some of the info on this site this weekend. She said that he's on call today, so we might not see the stuff till Monday.

[Bill Latchford]

Quoting Bill Latchford here:

"I have also mentioned the Public Forum that is coming up that Dr. Kotala has helped to put together. I believe, even though it will be quite biased, that there will be some great information put out."

You truly are a piece of work, Mr. Latchford. The hardworking, selfless scientists who will be speaking at the forum don't deserve this disgusting remark!

- Sammie Maybe I better make myself clear...Maybe I used the word biased in the wrong context. I feel that what all these professionals will be trying to convince people to be against the Wind Farm. I thought that was what biased meant. Like one sided. I do not have anything against being one sided. Just like I said for the Gamesa public forum, they only talked about everything good about a Wind Farm, Dr. Kotala and his group will talk about what all is bad. So no disrespect is intended by any means. These people have a cause and who am I to say that they are right or wrong. I agree with a lot of what is being said, but not all. I am not a big Nature Fan...That does not make me right or wrong just like people who are big Nature Fans doesn't make them right or wrong. I am very much looking forward to Dr. Kotala's froum, in that I think some really great information will be put that I think all should hear. So I think you thought I meant some sort of disrespect by the word biased and I thought I should respond to clarify.

[sandstone]

Quoting Bill Latchford here:

"I have also mentioned the Public Forum that is coming up that Dr. Kotala has helped to put together. I believe, even though it will be quite biased, that there will be some great information put out."

You truly are a piece of work, Mr. Latchford. The hardworking, selfless scientists who will be speaking at the forum don't deserve this disgusting remark!

I am very much looking forward to Dr. Kotala's froum, in that I think some really great information will be put that I think all should hear. So I think you thought I meant some sort of disrespect by the word biased and I thought I should respond to clarify.

I don't think that it's fair to call the SAVE ICE MOUNTAIN public forum "Dr. Kotala's forum." The Tyrone leaders of the opposition to the windplant asked Juniata Valley Audubon (of which Dr. Kotala is the president) for help in organizing this event because Juniata Valley Audubon had the expertise and structure that the newly-formed Tyrone group lacked. If you look back at the December posts in this forum you'll see requests for this kind of event from some of the people contributing to this forum and sandstone responding that it was a bad idea around the holidays. In addition, the group renting the TAHS auditorium needed proof of insurance, which Juniata Valley Audubon already had. No sense in reinventing the wheel. Others involved in organizing the event include the Moshannon Group of the Sierra Club, the Sinking Valley Watershed Association, Audubon Pennsylvania, Save Our Allegheny Ridges, and the Little Juniata River Association. Most of the 60+ volunteers who will be helping with the logistics of the event that evening are residents of Tyrone. Remember that 1,400 16686ers signed the petition opposing the windplant.

[Bill Latchford]

I don't think that it's fair to call the SAVE ICE MOUNTAIN public forum "Dr. Kotala's forum." The Tyrone leaders of the opposition to the windplant asked Juniata Valley Audubon (of which Dr. Kotala is the president) for help in organizing this event because Juniata Valley Audubon had the expertise and structure that the newly-formed Tyrone group lacked. If you look back at the December posts in this forum you'll see requests for this kind of event from some of the people contributing to this forum and sandstone responding that it was a bad idea around the holidays. In addition, the group renting the TAHS auditorium needed proof of insurance, which Juniata Valley Audubon already had. No sense in reinventing the wheel. Others involved in organizing the event include the Moshannon Group of the Sierra Club, the Sinking Valley Watershed Association, Audubon Pennsylvania, Save Our Allegheny Ridges, and the Little Juniata River Association. Most of the 60+ volunteers who will be helping with the logistics of the event that evening are residents of Tyrone. Remember that 1,400 16686ers signed the petition opposing the windplant.

Sound's good to me...I only use Dr. Kotala's name since it has been the one I have been most familiar with since all this started. I did not mean to give all credit to him. I think it is going to be a good forum no matter who is putting it together. I will however, since being corrected, extend my thanks to the "Save Ice Mountain" group for getting this going. I will still encourage all to attend...it is important for all to understand all sides of this. Gamesa had their own forum, "Ice Mountain" certainly deserves it's own.

[Ice Man]

Since there's been a lot of interest in golden eagles in this forum, here's something ss sent me from the State College Bird Club:

Birdclubbers,

Like every year, the spring hawkwatching season has leaped upon us, this year its a fresh coating of snow and a wintry forecast to greets us, but rest assured, birds are moving. I'm just back from San Antonio, TX, where the first purple martins had just returned. Not that we'll be seeing any purple martins in PA in February, but the goldens will certainly be moving if they haven't been already.

We are again sponsoring a counter to conduct the watch at Tussey Mountain. Tom Magarian (the Tussey counter in 04&'05) will be back for an encore performance. However, due to availability, he'll only be with us until mid-March (17 or 18th). So, from that point on, we expect to
run with volunteer coverage. As many of you know, the peak golden
migration is approximately Mar 5 - Mar 15, with good numbers moving before and after.

So, Tom is arriving today, and being housed graciously by SCBC member Joe Bishop. His first day on the watch will be tomorrow. I'm sure he'd appreciate any company he gets, it can definitely be lonely out on the mountain in February!

-Dan

The Tussey Mountain Eagle Watch is on top of the mountain behind Pine Grove Mills in Centre County. Take Rt 26 to the top of Tussey Mountain, park at the Jo Hayes Vista and walk south along the ridgetop, past the communication towers and ending up at the powerline. That's the Tussey Mountain Eagle Watch site. There's usually someone there counting eagles. They're always eager to share information and are very friendly (I mean the counters, not the eagles.).

[My2Cents]

If anyone is interested... the "National Governers Association" is about to have a meeting on "Energy Issues." It is live and just about ready to start on the C-SPAN TV station. Comcast channel 27.

[inmybackyard]

Well, its been a while since I have updated my own personal (and sometimes public) experience with Wind Industry. I refuse to call them "wind farms", for it is nothing similiar to a farm where things grow. Also, they are not "windmills", they are very large machines and they continue to have an effect on the communities in which they have been irresponcibly placed. Yes our Noise issue continues and nothing (are you surprised?) definitively has been done by Babcock and Brown, or Gamesa. We actually were hopeful when a B&B representative left our Juniata Township meeting, and came to our property to listen. He was surprised at how loud it was, referring it as a roar, saying he would report this to the Company. Not only did they not repond to a letter sent by our Solicitor, he also didn't bother to attend the next meeting, or have any follow-up. Low and behold this same rep was at the Portage Township meeting (as were we..lol) and when he was questioned, he stated it was an "Industrial Noise", and refused to comment on the volume he heard. So,we waited for him after the meeting to say, can't we work this out? His reponse was that the company (B&B) just wants us "to go away".
There you have it , big business at its best. Make no mistake, they do not care about my family, my neighbors, my home.........or YOU.
I will be at the ice mountain meeting in march, if not only to make sure they know,
I am not going anywhere.