The residents of the township have to suffer this "victory" over the evils of zoning, since the supervisors have decided to remove all reference to zoning from the comprehensive plan.
The reason Snyder Township looks the way it looks (like crap) is because there is no zoning!. Hey, all of you anti-zoning folks, tell you what - pay your freakin' taxes, then maybe we'll give you a say in whether we have any zoning. And now, when somebody opens up a methedone clinic next to your house, or a junk yard like those that grace 220 between Bald Eagle and Port Matilda, or an adult book store, or a machine shop that's using pneumatic grinding tools until 8:00pm each evening, don't complain about it, because guess what - there's no zoning!
And to those who thought that "zoning" was going to restrict swimming pools, or tell you where you could put your clothesline, or whether you could put up a basketball hoop or park a camper in your driveway - wake up and get a clue! This isn't Gray's Woods or Stonehedge. Zoning doesn't equal covenants or homeowner's association rules. And nobody is going to tell you where you can or can't put your double-wide, either. Hey, half of Snyder Township IS double-wides, so why stop now?
Me? I'm going to put in a chicken farm and chicken rendering plant right next to the house. The smell should be wonderful, and I'm sure the noise won't be any louder than the no-tax-paying, non-licensed scrap yard that's just down the street. That township code enforcement guy, he's right on the ball, isn't he?
Snyder Township Zoning
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jayestewart
- MVP Member
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- Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2003 4:38 pm
- If Mike has 13 apples, and gives six to Jane, how many does he have left?: 13
- Location: Fort Pierce, Florida
zoning
I am surprised at this turn of events. I thought for sure they would put something in the comprehensive plan that would deal with such issues. Down here in Florida a guy did something like you say you are going to do so they came in and changed some of zoning so he could not do it any longer. He started running weekend mud races in his field beside a community of 300,000 homes...they made some changes real quick....oh and he put in a pig farm.
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legislatewh0re
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coveredbridge
Re: Snyder Township Zoning
Blain wrote:The residents of the township have to suffer this "victory" over the evils of zoning, since the supervisors have decided to remove all reference to zoning from the comprehensive plan.
The reason Snyder Township looks the way it looks (like crap) is because there is no zoning!.
So, zoning determines how a municipality looks? I see lots of areas in Logan Twp, Altoona, Tyrone, all zoned communities, that look awlful. How do you explain that?
Hey, all of you anti-zoning folks, tell you what - pay your freakin' taxes, then maybe we'll give you a say in whether we have any zoning. And now, when somebody opens up a methedone clinic next to your house,
Last I heard, the methadone clinic was going in Logan Twp, a zoned municipality. Furthermore, state law prohibits placing a methadone clinic within 500 or 1000 feet of a residential area, so no one is going to put one in next to your house.
or a junk yard like those that grace 220 between Bald Eagle and Port Matilda, or an adult book store, or a machine shop that's using pneumatic grinding tools until 8:00pm each evening, don't complain about it, because guess what - there's no zoning!
The fact is that zoning prevents none of these uses, and, in fact, any zoning ordinance must provide a zone for these and all other disagreeable uses in the municipality. Maybe you'd like to explain how zoning benefitted the residents of Park Ave in Lakemont who had their quiet neighborhood turned into a stadium complex.
And to those who thought that "zoning" was going to restrict swimming pools, or tell you where you could put your clothesline, or whether you could put up a basketball hoop or park a camper in your driveway - wake up and get a clue! This isn't Gray's Woods or Stonehedge. Zoning doesn't equal covenants or homeowner's association rules. And nobody is going to tell you where you can or can't put your double-wide, either. Hey, half of Snyder Township IS double-wides, so why stop now?
If you dislike Snyder Twp so much, why did you move back here? There are plenty of zoned communities in the area to choose from.
Me? I'm going to put in a chicken farm and chicken rendering plant right next to the house. The smell should be wonderful, and I'm sure the noise won't be any louder than the no-tax-paying, non-licensed scrap yard that's just down the street. That township code enforcement guy, he's right on the ball, isn't he?
Well, that would be a positive contribution to the tax base, as opposed to zoning, which would impose huge administrative and professional expenses on the taxpayers of the twp.
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coveredbridge
legislatewh0re wrote:Antis Township is the same. The Supervisor's there didn't even have the balls to approve a study on zoning because a handful of people bullied them into abandoning it.
The so-called "study" was in fact a plan for implementing a zoning ordinance. There was no attempt to objectively evaluate the relative merits of zoning vs no zoning. The residents of Antis Twp were not fooled by the term "study".
It amazing how short sighted people can be. Maybe someday we'll get some elected officials who have a clue and some backbone.
So when should we expect to see your name on the ballot?
Move back? I never said that I had moved away to begin with.
I'd like to know how you think that zoning would impose " huge administrative and professional expenses on the taxpayers of the twp."?
It doesn't much matter at this point. And, the clowns that run this township could screw up a two car funeral, so even if they made an attempt at some sensible zoning, it wouldn't have gotten very far.
We also need somebody to start enforcing township codes. But that's another story.
I'd like to know how you think that zoning would impose " huge administrative and professional expenses on the taxpayers of the twp."?
It doesn't much matter at this point. And, the clowns that run this township could screw up a two car funeral, so even if they made an attempt at some sensible zoning, it wouldn't have gotten very far.
We also need somebody to start enforcing township codes. But that's another story.
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legislatewh0re
Re: Snyder Township Zoning
"I see lots of areas in Logan Twp, Altoona, Tyrone, all zoned communities, that look awlful. How do you explain that?"
I'll take a stab at that one - you have family members that reside in those communities?
"any zoning ordinance must provide a zone for these and all other disagreeable uses in the municipality".
...and your opposed to that??? God forbid we segregate commercial enterprises from residential areas! I guess the landscape all looks the same to you since you have your head wedged so far up your *ss.
"Maybe you'd like to explain how zoning benefitted the residents of Park Ave in Lakemont"
I don't know the particulars about what happened in Lakemont - but at least if your area is being rezoned you have an opportunity to oppose it. If there's no zoning you're SOL.
"which would impose huge administrative and professional expenses on the taxpayers of the twp."
You feel like throwing out some actual numbers?
"The so-called "study" was in fact a plan for implementing a zoning ordinance. There was no attempt to objectively evaluate the relative merits of zoning vs no zoning. The residents of Antis Twp were not fooled by the term "study"."
Again, you want to substantiate that? I don't think our Supervisors have enough collective brainpower to come up with an intricate ruse to foist zoning upon our unsuspecting community. They're lucky if they can find their assigned seats at the monthly meetings. While you're at it, maybe you could clear up some other urban legends for us. I think we'd all really like to know if Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone or as part of a CIA conspiracy.
"So when should we expect to see your name on the ballot?"
When the salary justifies all the time spent dealing with morons like you.
I'll take a stab at that one - you have family members that reside in those communities?
"any zoning ordinance must provide a zone for these and all other disagreeable uses in the municipality".
...and your opposed to that??? God forbid we segregate commercial enterprises from residential areas! I guess the landscape all looks the same to you since you have your head wedged so far up your *ss.
"Maybe you'd like to explain how zoning benefitted the residents of Park Ave in Lakemont"
I don't know the particulars about what happened in Lakemont - but at least if your area is being rezoned you have an opportunity to oppose it. If there's no zoning you're SOL.
"which would impose huge administrative and professional expenses on the taxpayers of the twp."
You feel like throwing out some actual numbers?
"The so-called "study" was in fact a plan for implementing a zoning ordinance. There was no attempt to objectively evaluate the relative merits of zoning vs no zoning. The residents of Antis Twp were not fooled by the term "study"."
Again, you want to substantiate that? I don't think our Supervisors have enough collective brainpower to come up with an intricate ruse to foist zoning upon our unsuspecting community. They're lucky if they can find their assigned seats at the monthly meetings. While you're at it, maybe you could clear up some other urban legends for us. I think we'd all really like to know if Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone or as part of a CIA conspiracy.
"So when should we expect to see your name on the ballot?"
When the salary justifies all the time spent dealing with morons like you.
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coveredbridge
Re: Snyder Township Zoning
legislatewh0re wrote:"I see lots of areas in Logan Twp, Altoona, Tyrone, all zoned communities, that look awlful. How do you explain that?"
I'll take a stab at that one - you have family members that reside in those communities?
It doesn't matter where my family or your family lives, the point is that zoning does not ensure an esthetically pleasing community.
"any zoning ordinance must provide a zone for these and all other disagreeable uses in the municipality".
...and your opposed to that??? God forbid we segregate commercial enterprises from residential areas! I guess the landscape all looks the same to you since you have your head wedged so far up your *ss.
I have no problem with separating commercial from residential areas. I DO have a problem with the government taking away private property rights without just compensation. That is one of the rights enumerated in article five of the U.S. Constitution. If you don't like the way someone uses their property, the proper solution in this country is to buy the property, then you may do with it as you please.
"Maybe you'd like to explain how zoning benefitted the residents of Park Ave in Lakemont"
I don't know the particulars about what happened in Lakemont - but at least if your area is being rezoned you have an opportunity to oppose it. If there's no zoning you're SOL.
Actually, if an area is being rezoned the party that is able to buy the best attroneys and most political influence usually prevails, as was the case in Lakemont. I would rather allow free markets to determine the value of real estate, rather than a bunch of lawyers and politicians.
"which would impose huge administrative and professional expenses on the taxpayers of the twp."
You feel like throwing out some actual numbers?
OK. Zoning Officer - $50,000 per year Salary, Benefits and Expenses. Legal Fees - 500 hours at $150/hr, total $75,000 per year. Civil Engineering Fees - 250 hours at $100 per hour, total $25,000 per year. Administrative Support - $25,000 per year Salary and Benefits.
Grand Total - $175,000 per year. I'm guessing 1 mil of R/E tax produces about $20,000 per year in revenue, so add about 9 mils to your Township Taxes.
"The so-called "study" was in fact a plan for implementing a zoning ordinance. There was no attempt to objectively evaluate the relative merits of zoning vs no zoning. The residents of Antis Twp were not fooled by the term "study"."
Again, you want to substantiate that? I don't think our Supervisors have enough collective brainpower to come up with an intricate ruse to foist zoning upon our unsuspecting community. They're lucky if they can find their assigned seats at the monthly meetings. While you're at it, maybe you could clear up some other urban legends for us. I think we'd all really like to know if Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone or as part of a CIA conspiracy.
It's all public record. Feel free to do the research on your own. I don't need to since I was there. We were told we needed to be "educated". We were told that zoning would be good for us. We were told many things, but all the so-called experts that were retained by the BOS at taxpayer expense were advocates for zoning and were preparing an implementation plan. There was no expert representation supporting the opposing view, even though such expertise exists in abundance. I don't know how a BOS can claim they are conducting a "study" when all the activities are in support of zoning and there is no attempt to learn about the opposing view.
"So when should we expect to see your name on the ballot?"
When the salary justifies all the time spent dealing with morons like you.
I've always been of the opinion that if you think you can do a better job, go for it. Otherwise you've got no justification for complaining.
I have tried to respond to your comments in a dignified manner, even though your repsonse was filled with hateful, rude, juvenile retorts. Just so you know, I won't continue this debate if you insist upon continuing with the disparaging remarks. Not because they bother me (actually they are somewhat amusing, in a Jr High sort of way), but because they indicate that you haven't the intellectual capacity or maturity to engage in a rational debate in an adult fashion. My time is more valuable than that.
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legislatewh0re
Look Jack, you don't want to debate, you just want to hold court and dazzle us with your convoluted logic. Your initial observations were so condescending and vague they invited abuse. Your second reply, which at least provided some numbers (though they lacked any type of backing) was equally uncompelling.
What private property rights are you afraid you'll lose? Parroting the last line of the 5th Amendment may sound impressive but it doesn't advance your argument.
How are your property rights justly compensated when your neighbor decides he's going to open up a Body Shop and operate it out of his garage or when a local developer decides he'd like to put a low income housing project on the lot he purchased behind your house?
Zoning laws weren't enacted to make sure neighborhoods looked pretty - they were enacted to protect the property rights your so concerned about. They protect neighborhoods and individual property owners from the potential harm caused by businesses run at home and from arbitrary and poorly conceived land development. This protection in turn helps stabilize your property values.
Are you deluded enough to think that the majority of home owners have the resources to purchase all the land surrounding their house or neighborhood when they dislike what's happening on an adjacent lot? Do you really think that telling people to move if they don't like it is a viable solution?
Zoning provides a measure of protection for individual homeowners and neighborhoods that on their own most folks can not afford. A thoroughly researched, publicly debated and agreed upon zoning plan that provides space for each type of land use cannot help but be more logical, just and reasonable than the protection offered by the “free market”.
What private property rights are you afraid you'll lose? Parroting the last line of the 5th Amendment may sound impressive but it doesn't advance your argument.
How are your property rights justly compensated when your neighbor decides he's going to open up a Body Shop and operate it out of his garage or when a local developer decides he'd like to put a low income housing project on the lot he purchased behind your house?
Zoning laws weren't enacted to make sure neighborhoods looked pretty - they were enacted to protect the property rights your so concerned about. They protect neighborhoods and individual property owners from the potential harm caused by businesses run at home and from arbitrary and poorly conceived land development. This protection in turn helps stabilize your property values.
Are you deluded enough to think that the majority of home owners have the resources to purchase all the land surrounding their house or neighborhood when they dislike what's happening on an adjacent lot? Do you really think that telling people to move if they don't like it is a viable solution?
Zoning provides a measure of protection for individual homeowners and neighborhoods that on their own most folks can not afford. A thoroughly researched, publicly debated and agreed upon zoning plan that provides space for each type of land use cannot help but be more logical, just and reasonable than the protection offered by the “free market”.
Last edited by legislatewh0re on Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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DudeDescendingStaircase
Unzoned Poetry
Of zoning you are a critic,
Some might say even a cynic
But would it sour your tune
When they place a sign near to you
Quoth: Home to a new Merthodone Clinic?
Some might say even a cynic
But would it sour your tune
When they place a sign near to you
Quoth: Home to a new Merthodone Clinic?
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coveredbridge
Zoning is nothing more than the government usurpation of private property rights, in direct conflict with the individual right to own private property afforded by the fifth amendment. It originated in Germany, where individuals have never had any rights guaranteed by a constitution, and therefore have no concept that they should have any private property rights. It was brought to this country by socialist academics who still believe that European society is superior to our own. These same individuals believe that terrorists should be pacified, drugs should be legalized, and our right to keep and bear arms should be subordinated to the United Nations.
This nation was founded on the concept that individuals have the right to own property without fear of confiscation by the government without just compensation. Only in the past 70 years or so, in which our society has (wrongly, in my opinion) moved toward a socialist welfare state, has the notion that the government could dictate what an individual does with his private property become popular. This is unfortunate, because it reflects the same general lack of knowledge of and respect for the founding principles of our government and society that your position represents.
The same arguments that are used to advocate zoning will likely be used in the future to rescind even more of our constitutional rights, and will ultimately lead to the destruction of our government and our society as we know it. All because of your selfish desire to dictate to others what they can do with their property.
There is no right under the Constitution to have the value of your property preserved by the government. If you don't like the view of your neighbor's property, build a fence or buy his property, but don't try to use the power of the government to compel him to bend to your will. Someday, the shoe may be on the other foot.
Furthermore, as a practical matter, zoning has been proven to be ineffective at preventing disagreeable uses in a community. Please identify the examples where zoning has prevented objectionable uses in our area. I know of none. In addition, zoning will require additional municipal staff and officials. These individuals will require compensation and benefits and will incur expenses in the performance of their duties. Professionals such as attorneys and engineers will need to be retained to prepare and revise zoning maps, consider conditional uses and defend the actions of the Zoning Hearing Board. If you don't agree with my cost estimates, feel free to provide your own. I think mine are conservative.
I get the impression that you are one of those individuals who have nothing better to do than sit around and find fault with what others do with their lives and their property. I suggest that you focus instead on your own life, and quit sticking your nose in other peoples' business.
By the way, the fourth largest city in the USA has no zoning.
This nation was founded on the concept that individuals have the right to own property without fear of confiscation by the government without just compensation. Only in the past 70 years or so, in which our society has (wrongly, in my opinion) moved toward a socialist welfare state, has the notion that the government could dictate what an individual does with his private property become popular. This is unfortunate, because it reflects the same general lack of knowledge of and respect for the founding principles of our government and society that your position represents.
The same arguments that are used to advocate zoning will likely be used in the future to rescind even more of our constitutional rights, and will ultimately lead to the destruction of our government and our society as we know it. All because of your selfish desire to dictate to others what they can do with their property.
There is no right under the Constitution to have the value of your property preserved by the government. If you don't like the view of your neighbor's property, build a fence or buy his property, but don't try to use the power of the government to compel him to bend to your will. Someday, the shoe may be on the other foot.
Furthermore, as a practical matter, zoning has been proven to be ineffective at preventing disagreeable uses in a community. Please identify the examples where zoning has prevented objectionable uses in our area. I know of none. In addition, zoning will require additional municipal staff and officials. These individuals will require compensation and benefits and will incur expenses in the performance of their duties. Professionals such as attorneys and engineers will need to be retained to prepare and revise zoning maps, consider conditional uses and defend the actions of the Zoning Hearing Board. If you don't agree with my cost estimates, feel free to provide your own. I think mine are conservative.
I get the impression that you are one of those individuals who have nothing better to do than sit around and find fault with what others do with their lives and their property. I suggest that you focus instead on your own life, and quit sticking your nose in other peoples' business.
By the way, the fourth largest city in the USA has no zoning.
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coveredbridge
DDS,
As I mentioned before, PA law prohibits the placement of a methadone clinic within 500 feet of a residential housing area, among other things. So while your limerick is clever, it is not relevant. BTW, I would remind you again that Logan Township, a zoned community, appears to be the likely site of the next methadone clinic in the area.
I really did like the poem, though.
As I mentioned before, PA law prohibits the placement of a methadone clinic within 500 feet of a residential housing area, among other things. So while your limerick is clever, it is not relevant. BTW, I would remind you again that Logan Township, a zoned community, appears to be the likely site of the next methadone clinic in the area.
I really did like the poem, though.
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jayestewart
- MVP Member
- Posts: 233
- Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2003 4:38 pm
- If Mike has 13 apples, and gives six to Jane, how many does he have left?: 13
- Location: Fort Pierce, Florida
Debate
So is all this debate over an issue that has been decided or is it under further review?