Business Ethics

[Bill Latchford]

I am glad the "new business's" owner is smiling, because he has to do something while people are waiting. I wish East End employees smiled more too, but that does not take away anything from their original HOAGIE creation. I would be smiling too, if I would have stolen my neighbor's identity and stood to make a mint off of their recipe.

Ok I believe we can see that you are passionate about this topic, but lets try and step back for a moment here. You are going to tell me that a Hoagie and a Sub have nothing to do with each other? Hmmmmm I think we are getting a bit carried away here. I commend you for being so dedicated to East End...but how far do you want this to go? People are aloud to choose who they want to purchase their products from, and really don't need you to be out here calling them traitors. So Mac's makes a good sandwich and Pizza and so does East End. You talk about this secret recipe and it's just onions in oil....I have friends that make their own Texas Sauce for Hot Dogs...If they figured it out on their own and someone does not own a patent on the recipe then they can use it all they want. All it means is that someone didn't protect "The Secret" very well. Maybe employees should sign a confidentiality agreement before working at fast food / Pizza and Hoagie shops. I am sorry for being a bit sarcastic about this, but really I have not seen anything like this in some time and it throws me off a bit to see it get so carried away. Everyone Please Move Back To Your Neutral Corners

[Doorman]

Well I guess there is a very good chance that Eastend will not run out of product as fast as they did before. I guess I will have to try the new one to see how it is. If it is good as everybody says then I will have to give both places my business.

[banksy]

I clipped my toe nails this evening. Thought I would say that "aloud" to lighten the mood.

Most posting against Disney are playing devils advocate to some degree, he/she certainly is well spoken and thoughful in his/her argument. I see both sides. I certainly would be irritated if someone setup shop that close to me and essentially sold the same unique product. You can not argue that the East End Hoagie is not unique. I think the main point being made in defense of East End is not that Mac is selling a hoagie, it's that he is duplicating another product that isn't just 87 octane, a 6 cylinder, etc.

It certainly is not just onions and oil. I've tried to duplicate the recipie and it isn't the same. I suspect there is some sugar on those onions and that they sit for some period of time to bask their flavor. Anyway, that's off point.

From a legal standpoint there probably isn't a case, but that isn't what was being argued. The argument is ethics from one long time Tyrone business owner to another. That's the point. I get the impression that Disney is related to the Switzers and thus her frustration and stance. I think all of you would reflect the same feeling should the same happen to your family.

I've played devil's advocate in this thread to understand and bring out additional additional facts. Now that I have seen them, I feel as well what Mac is doing reflect desperation and greed. For the most part his idea (cpoycating) is a short term solution. People will buy them to see how close he could match them, but when the novelty wears off, so will the business.

[disneyqn71]

FINALLY.
Thank you so much for your understanding. You nailed it. That is exactly what I have been trying to express throughout this entire thread.

I really appreciate the good conversation and debate. Funny, that someone posted that they have not seen anything like this in a very long time...hmmmmm, maybe because it has never really happened like this in Tyrone in the past, despite the unsuccessful attempts to compare.

I can't say that I wish the "new business" well, but I do appreciate and cherish the freedom of choice as a citizen and consumer. Having said that, I don't think that some people make the most ethical decision. You are not a traitor for purchasing and/or enjoying the "new business". You have that right. But just because someone, such as the "new business's" owner is not breaking the law, does not mean that he practices good morals or has integrity.

For the record, it is not just wesson oil...hahaha. If I tell ya, then I would have to kill ya.....just kidding.

[FreeEnterprise]

I am certainly enjoying this political platform we are holding over a hoagie. I just don't understand why you are surprised by these business practices. I don't see anyone on here complaining about generics vs. brands. Next time you buy a generic brand of toothpaste, or aspirin, or so on, think about where they came from. Patents on brands only last 20 years, if that. Be happy that East End had 51. Before you form your rebuttal Disney, I am not comparing toothpaste with hoagies. I am comparing business practices. I can only but assume that your sitting in front of a computer that has Microsoft on it. Did you know that there are claims that Bill Gates stole his idea from Macintosh. Are you as concerned about that as you are the hoagies? Probably not. But, the principal of that story is along the same lines as we are discussing here. Business does not revolve around people's perception of right and wrong. America's business market doesn't work that way. If it did, we wouldn't outsource to other countries and wouldn't have similar businesses. You should be grateful that it took 51 years for a competitor to surface that was comparable. As Mr. Latchford stated, people have a right to have options. I personally prefer the service at Mac's as You prefer the service at East End. That's the beauty of it.. Freedom of choice. Let the people of Tyrone decide where they want to eat.

[Mainegirl]

I think everyone here has valid points. However, what I hear disney saying is that these people were customers as well as neighbors in business for years. It feels to her like a slap in the face that they are now in competition with the same product.

[banksy]

I am certainly enjoying this political platform we are holding over a hoagie. I just don't understand why you are surprised by these business practices. I don't see anyone on here complaining about generics vs. brands. Next time you buy a generic brand of toothpaste, or aspirin, or so on, think about where they came from.

The difference in generic vs brand in terms of food product is taste. There is a difference in product in the food industry. That is where the difference is.

I am comparing business practices. I can only but assume that your sitting in front of a computer that has Microsoft on it. Did you know that there are claims that Bill Gates stole his idea from Macintosh. Are you as concerned about that as you are the hoagies?

While your assumption is probably 95% correct, I personally use Red Hat Linux on the very PC that I am posting this from. Why would the practices of Bill Gates concern us, it isn't the point trying to be made. And for the record, there is NO factual basis that Gates stole from Apple. If there were, the arrogance that is Steve Jobs would have clearly taken a legal route and won. There are similarities, but they are not duplicates, however for the sake of this debate it is immaterial.

Business does not revolve around people's perception of right and wrong. America's business market doesn't work that way. If it did, we wouldn't outsource to other countries and wouldn't have similar businesses.

While some business do not revolve around right and wrong, some do. There are many businesses that refuse to purchase foreign products. There are businesses in my area that stock only Ohio based products. While it may be agreeable that a higher percentage of companies do not focus all of their practices around right or wrong, it would be unfactual to say all businesses, which you lead the reader to believe. To add to that, some consumers, especially in rural America like Tyrone, make every attempt to purchase only American and pay a higher price to do that. Some consumers also only purchase particular brands, due to a loyalty to a local retailer (buying a Fink's hardware vs Wal-Mart.) Again, this promotes more than a perception of right and wrong, on both the consumer side and market side.

You should be grateful that it took 51 years for a competitor to surface that was comparable. As Mr. Latchford stated, people have a right to have options. I personally prefer the service at Mac's as You prefer the service at East End. That's the beauty of it.. Freedom of choice. Let the people of Tyrone decide where they want to eat.

I don't think anyone suggested that people do not have the right to choose. I think her point was to ask for some consumer loyalty to a local business who sells a unique product. Call it strategic marketing, call it posting on a board, it could possibly be a way to retain consumers in a unique way.

[FreeEnterprise]

If you would, please read over my postings again and note that not once did I use the phrase "all businesses". I am only discussing the majority of markets. Also note that I had said that I was not comparing products to one another (or taste of products for that matter), but only comparing business practices. I am comparing the Bill Gates story to that of Disney's theory that the East End's recipe was stolen. It doesn't take much to disassemble a cured meat, cheese covered, oil soaked, onion laden hoagie on a DP roll. I am using that story to point out that she is making accusations. Just as there were accusations towards Bill Gates. Yet, I'm sure Disney is using products from companies who have done the same thing to a competitor whether she is aware or not. All of us are. I apologize that I can’t seem to simplify this situation enough for you to understand. Clearly I am trying to make a point that this is not the first time events like this have happened. The idea of creating a business that mirrors another business is not revolutionary. I applaud your local businesses for supplying locally made products or American products. I am simply stating that companies care about the perception customers have of them, not the perception of competitors. Where would we be if we worried about stepping on someone’s toes or hurting someone’s feelings? There is always going to be someone who isn’t happy or disagrees. The people you need to make happy are your customers and your employees not you competitors. If you don’t, than they have every right to go somewhere else. I don't feel that the people of Tyrone should be chastised or treated like traitors for being curious and buying a hoagie from someone other than East End. It‘s not a question of loyalty, but instead a question of satisfaction. Why make the citizens feel guilty for trying something that's outside what Disney considers the norm. Should I feel guilty for shopping at Wal-Mart? No! Should I feel guilty for buying a Mac's Market hoagie? Absolutely not, nor should anyone else.

[blonde23]

Are you kidding me? What on earth is Mac's doing that is unique? That is too funny! Obviously Mac's was not capable of being creative or "unique" to start a new business of his own. Argue it or not, but Mac's stole a product from an 85 year old woman. How unique is that? So next time you guys go into Mac's and order an East End's cold, med or hot(which is even funnier that he even had to use the same names) hoagie, think of Louise Sweitzer because if it would not be for her you guys would not be eating a hoagie from Mac's considering he couldn't come up with anything of his own. Thanks Louise for making FreeEnterprise, Mr. Latchford, and those others out there happy for originating an East End hoagie so someone like Mac's could attempt to make a living off your idea. Hardly doubt he will be in business for 51 years off an imitation. I'll give it a year or two just on the earlier comment made that the owner mingles with the public! Bet that would be a good, moral, and ethical conversation! NOT!

[banksy]

Should I feel guilty for shopping at Wal-Mart?

Actually, it you should if you are looking at the long run, but thats a different debate.

[mother2xs]

What is the big deal? So what!!!! Mac's opened a hoagie shop. If your an East End fan-go there. If your a Mac's fan-go there. There are more inportant things in life to worry about than the war of of the hoagies. PEOPLE get over it. We have men and women that are being killed in the war and CHILDREN starving, and the people of Tyrone are worried about hoagies. How dumb does this all sound. I wish you people were assertive at the town meetings, instead of the hoagie shops...... After all this is just how I feel.

[Blain]

Due to personal reasons, I certainly don't have any love for Mac's, but some of you people need to get over yourselves.

I lived in that neighborhood, very close to Mac's, for a long time, and I've eaten countless East End hoagies, so I'm probably as qualified as anybody to comment on it. Brian probably saw the need to change the business in order to survive. The little neighborhood grocery store isn't the hot business these days. They saw a hole in the market they could fill. They have the right to make and sell a sandwich any way they please. It's a free market, and the market will decide if they succeed or fail.

There isn't any secret formula to the East End hoagie. You buy pacifico rolls, the cheapest lunch meat you can find, and onions. There you go.

East End has a fifty year head-start on Mac's. If they are so great, there shouldn't be a problem. But when you have limited hours, and are closed for three weeks at a time several times a year, you'll find yourself at a disadvantage when you are suddenly in a competitive situation.

Competition is good for the consumer. If you are loyal to East End because you like the product and the people and their heritage in town, that's great, but they are not owed any loyalty because they've been around for fifty years. They had to earn it on an individual customer basis and they need to keep earning it. Remember, Mac's has been serving that neighborhood a long time too.

[mangotree]

Until now, if you were addicted to the onions of East End, you had to deal with the Sweitzers to get your fix. That wouldn't be a problem if it were just 85-year-old Louise working at the shop, but unfortunately the rest of her family works there too.

So to get the onions, you have to survive the most pathetic offering of customer service known to the restaurant industry. If their phone manners don't scare you away, wait until you get inside to pick up your order. Not a drop of friendliness exists at East End Pizza, where Louise's adult children rule the roost with their poor attitudes, rude comments and an arrogance that dares you to show up one minute late for your order.

So you still want the onions? You're not there yet. You still have to be lucky enough to want them at an hour of the day where the Sweitzers feel like working. And even then, it has to be a week of the month that they're not vacationing.

They just don't care about their customers. If they did, they'd offer more accommodating hours and order enough product to meet demand. But profits conquer customer convenience every time they conflict. Why man the counter when you could be home watching the soaps? It's a "me first" mentality when it comes to the business decisions of East End Pizza, and unfortunately the "me" is not referring to the customer.

Now back to the onions. For 51 years, you did what you had to do to get them. Enter Mac's Market. Friendly. Genuine. Customer-oriented. All the stuff you'd expect from a mom-and-pop business -- the same stuff that East End Pizza is oblivious to. And now, Mac's has THE onions.

Unethical for Brian to do this? Not when you consider who he's up against. If he truly stole from a poor, defenseless little-old-lady as Disneyqn paints the picture, then I'd question his ethics as well. But that's not the case. East End brought this upon themselves for all the reasons mentioned above, none of which have anything to do with Louise Sweitzer.

Kudos to Mac's Market -- friendly new home of the onions you can't live without.

[banksy]

You call keep saying its just onions... but its more than that.... what else is it so I can make them at home? It's not just onions and oil either.

[disneyqn71]

For starters, I am deeply offended by anyone who is suggesting they know my feelings toward the WAR and/or STARVING CHILDREN. That is totally absurd. How dare you make such a claim. This is a cafe that voices opinions and concerns about many topics, so if you would like to create a post about the war and hunger issues, then I would be glad to respond. The comment truly did not even justify a response, however I wanted to make it clear that the topic of this post, created by me is BUSINESS ETHICS.

Now let me address a few other comments. Blaine, stated that there is NO secret recipe and makes a mockery out of the chosen ingredients...Well, then...why did it take 51 years to duplicate the product? The answer was posted by me several pages back, because HE had the advantage of having an ex-employee demonstrate the process in order to replicate the hoagie. I don't think Kunzler's a.k.a. Juinata Packing would appreciate their meat being referenced to as "cheap", but of course, that is your opinion. So the "new business" must be using the same "cheap" ingredients then, right?
As for earning loyalty...East End has done that. I believe that customer satisfaction and loyalty has been intrinsically coupled to the well-being and long term growth of East End. In other words, the success of East End has always depended on how satisfied and loyal their customers have been and will continue to be.
How can you say that East End will be at a competitive disadvantage, in regards to their hours of operation? They have thrived without your business and those of others that don't patronize their schedule. Point being, they will not MISS YOU or anyone else that criticizes their hours, because those of you would not be considered LOYAL patrons, and therefore if they did have to COUNT on people such as yourself to make a living, then they would have been out of business long ago.

So finally, I can't sign off without addressing a few of Mangotree's comments. Most of the rude remarks don't warrant a response, however I was intrigued by the comment "the Swetizer's dont' care about their customer, because if they did...". So if they ordered another 80 DOZEN ROLLS, that would mean they care more? How ridiculous is that. You seriously have no idea how many hoagies fly off the shelf do you? Have you ever thought about why East End has never offered DELIVERY or FUND RAISERS? It would be impossible to keep up with the demand. There, now that's an idea for the "new business".

Stay home and watch the soaps? Just plain rude to assume you know what is taking place between the hours of 1 and 4pm. Do you think the hoagies, magically prepare themselves for the hoagie board? Do you think several 50 lbs. of onion sacks peel and chop themselves? Do you think the lettuce, tomatoes and peppers clean and cut themselves? Do you think the meat slices itself? If so then the chili sauce must cook itself too. Oh yeah, and the store cleans itselfs too. C'mon.

"me first mentaltiy.." is that what you call it? That's exactly what I said about the "new business". If he did not have a "ME FIRST MENTALITY" then he would have provided YOU with a UNIQUE product. He is riding on Lousie's coat tails and no one is going to convince me otherwise.

You got one thing right, he did STEAL from Louise, however she would be offended to learn that she was referred to as a "poor, defenseless, old lady". She is the most sincere, hard working, dedicated woman that I know. So I do agree that East End did bring this on themselves, because thanks to "Howd and Louise", you now have an alternative atmosphere to mingle and exchange smiles, while waiting for the onion laden replicate, that is still "off just enough..."