Bill Latchford wrote:
Maybe we should cut the trees down since they to, are a conduit for wild fires...Go ask the people in California.
Ice Mountain is not in California. Trees in PA are not of the same species as in CA. The trees that go up in flames in CA are resinous conifers that are highly flammable. Most of the trees on Ice Mt are oaks of various species which are extremely resistant to fires. Your threat of cutting them all down will INCREASE the risk of fire by causing dessication on the dry mountaintop. Not only will the 400+' turbines increase the risk of fire, but the wide corridors leading from turbine to turbine will serve as conduits for the rapid spread of fire. In additon, these wide corridors will increase dessication of the adjacent forest, again resulting in increased susceptibility to fire. Not only that, but these wide roads will be used by motorbikers and ATVers (as at Allegheny Ridge Wind Farm) and the risk of ignition from sparks and cigarettes will increase, whether or not it's legal to ride there.
By the way, the problems of "ferns" and "striped maples" mentioned by the forester and aped by Councilwoman Werner are due to overharvesting of timber. Both these species are shade intolerant. The increased opening of the forest canopy resulting from the turbine clearings, roads, substations, etc will result in an INCREASE in both these species and thus a decrease in the oaks.
Bill Latchford wrote:
Maybe we should cut the trees down since they to, are a conduit for wild fires...Go ask the people in California. Lighting hitting a Turbine or Lighting hitting a tree both have the potential for causing a wild fire. The people that put the Turbines up know that lighting takes the path of least resistance, so yes the Turbines are a better target. For that reason they ground them really well, to send the lighting strike to the ground without causing damage to the Turbine. That is why some people put lighting rods on their house. So if their house gets hit they hope for most of the energy to go into the ground. Does it work all the time, I doubt it. But to say that there is no chance of a wild fire on a mountain to be caused by a lighting strike to a tree would be false.
Bills exactly right.
Lightning strikes can cause forest fires.
If memory serves, he researched the subject extensively when the Borough was considering a new fire ordinance back in 1998.
While initially reluctant to back the ordinance he attended several seminars conducted by the Fire Alarm industry and eventually became a strong backer of the proposed plan.
Unfortunately he had to abstain from that vote because his employer, Penn State, regularly uses fire in its kitchens and at its Football pep rallies.
watcher wrote:Thanks for explaining that Ice Man! So, just to play the devil's advocate here, how exactly is it possible for them to contest Snyder Township's authority in this case? It seems that this is worthy of our attention if it's a possible way of not having windmills placed in a naturally protected area, correct?
Neither Gamesa nor Tyrone Borough can contest Snyder Township's authority, as such authority over land use is well-established in PA case law. What typically happens is that either the developer (Gamesa) or the landowner (Tyrone Borough) will ask for a "variance." Such variances can be granted by the township board of supervisors without a public hearing. Another option is for the developer or the landowner to ask the township to ammend its ordinance, in this case removing any protection for Important Bird Areas (IBAs). Ammendments to ordinances require a public hearing. If the township denies the developer's/landowner's requests, then the last option would be for the developer or the landowner to sue the township, claiming that this restriction is not reasonable. As you can see, the situation could get quite ugly if the borough votes YES to the windplant.
For example, in Logan Township, Gamesa asked for an expansion of the township's windplant zone, claiming that the current zone is too small for a windplant. Logan Township held a public hearing, at which about 60 people opposed the windplant and one person favored the windplant. The township denied Gamesa's request.
Below is a sampling of comments received by Juniata Valley Audubon over the past 2 days regarding the Tyrone Borough windplant vote last Monday:
Yes, Tyrone Borough Council members made it quite clear that they don’t give a d*mn about anything but the bottom line. They’ve found a water expert to assure them this wouldn’t hurt anything, just as they found a forester in the past who told them that logging in the watershed would be good for it. Willful ignorance + greed = always a toxic combination.
It was encouraging, if only faintly so, that the bulk of the ordinary Tyroners in attendance, mostly for other reasons, gave supportive nods when Tyroner Dave Bonta spoke, and one — a Mr. Fink, from Washington Ave. — even added his own comments, denouncing the B.S. vote they held last year, and urging a precautionary principle-type approach to any disturbance on the watershed.
This is a huge loss. Not one council member acknowledged any ecological reasons for voting NO, in spite of Ice Mtn being designated as a “unique” Blair County Natural Heritage Area “of exceptional conservation value.”
Ecological issues were acknowledged by EVERY member of the seven-member Logan Twp. Planning Commission and every member of the five-member Logan Township Board of Supervisors in denying Gamesa’s request in THAT township — with similar acknowledgements occurring in Frankstown, Allegheny, Antis, and Tyrone Townships. Tyrone Borough is definitely an outlier.
There were only three NO votes, two of them because they were not offered enough $$$.
It's interesting that the two “men of God,” namely Kilmartin and Kosoglow, voted NO only because they wanted more money!
It is interesting to think about the psychology behind the explanation of the two NO votes. Although they voted NO, Kosoglow and Kilmartin can still say:
• they support wind — they just want a better project;
• they have the economics of the community in mind and are waiting for a better project; or
• they listened to the people — the wind project is just on hold until they get a better offer from a different company.
Regardless, Gamesa's project is dead for now! A small, but sweet victory for the birds, rats, bats, water, and forest on Ice Mountain!
And finally, this note from a local nature writer:
I've been trying to educate people for nearly four decades about the natural world. One of the hardest things for people to learn is that "nature loves messiness." All of our attempts to tidy up our land do not help birds and animals in the least. The idea that we can do better by planting trees and cleaning up is a fallacy that is also perpetrated by the logging industry. Nature doesn't need our help as much as we need nature's. In other words, the more we destroy our natural world by putting in roads, including the wide access roads needed by the windmill industry, the more we will be encouraging hay-scented ferns to move in. What the foresters don't tell you is that hay-scented ferns are NATIVES that were scarce when Thoreau was alive and were his favorite ferns. Why do you suppose they are common now and crowding out other species? Because we have opened up more land, with powerline right-of-ways, highway byways, clearcutting our forests, and who knows what else.
Mayor Kilmartin is right. Wind power is most efficient west of the Mississippi. Do you know that in Canada they will not allow wind farms on their mountains? They don't want to ruin the scenic beauty that brings so many tourists to their country. Do we want to ruin our scenic beauty? Those wind farms are not beautiful and they will dominate the town. If Canada doesn't want them on their mighty Rocky Mountains because they think they will ruin the beauty of them, imagine how much more they will ruin the beauty of our little green mountains.
The other think I worry about is this. How many times have folks been fooled by various schemes promising jobs and income. In the nearly 40 years we have lived here I remember many such schemes and so far have seen no real improvement in our situation. Also, I remember how many coal companies came into PA. towns and extracted coal and then left the town to clean up their water after the companies were sold to other companies, which declared bankruptcy. And with Gamesa you are dealing with a Spanish company. How much control do you think you will have over them? How long will their subsidies from our government keep them afloat?
Well, these are just a few of my thoughts. I hope you share them with other members of the borough council before you sell our heritage for a mess of pottage.
Looking into my and what do I see? 8 Council members who don't give two squats about what their town wants. Ohhhhhhhh........but there's a change a comin down the road!!
Ice Man wrote:................ I've been trying to educate people for nearly four decades about the natural world. One of the hardest things for people to learn is that "nature loves messiness." All of our attempts to tidy up our land do not help birds and animals in the least. The idea that we can do better by planting trees and cleaning up is a fallacy that is also perpetrated by the logging industry. Nature doesn't need our help as much as we need nature's. In other words, the more we destroy our natural world by putting in roads, including the wide access roads needed by the windmill industry, the more we will be encouraging hay-scented ferns to move in. What the foresters don't tell you is that hay-scented ferns are NATIVES that were scarce when Thoreau was alive and were his favorite ferns. Why do you suppose they are common now and crowding out other species? Because we have opened up more land, with powerline right-of-ways, highway byways, clearcutting our forests, and who knows what else.
Mayor Kilmartin is right. Wind power is most efficient west of the Mississippi. Do you know that in Canada they will not allow wind farms on their mountains? They don't want to ruin the scenic beauty that brings so many tourists to their country. Do we want to ruin our scenic beauty? Those wind farms are not beautiful and they will dominate the town. If Canada doesn't want them on their mighty Rocky Mountains because they think they will ruin the beauty of them, imagine how much more they will ruin the beauty of our little green mountains.
The other think I worry about is this. How many times have folks been fooled by various schemes promising jobs and income. In the nearly 40 years we have lived here I remember many such schemes and so far have seen no real improvement in our situation. Also, I remember how many coal companies came into PA. towns and extracted coal and then left the town to clean up their water after the companies were sold to other companies, which declared bankruptcy. And with Gamesa you are dealing with a Spanish company. How much control do you think you will have over them? How long will their subsidies from our government keep them afloat?
Well, these are just a few of my thoughts. I hope you share them with other members of the borough council before you sell our heritage for a mess of pottage.
Somewhere way back in this thread it was mentioned by Councilman Bill Latchford that wind energy was a good place to start...we need to think green. I have never been able to understand the logic behind that statement. Robbing Peter to Pay Paul....in effect....placing windfarms on our mountain's ridges is exactly just that. Finally tonight.....we get some honesty. Finally tonight.....he confesses its all about the money. The really pathetic thing is....in the end...if this goes through.....the cost of this project in many ways is going to outweigh the benefit. The wind industry stock is in decline. All around the world there are reports that maybe wind energy wasn't the wisest choice...maybe haste does make waste.
The local media are guilty of a great injustice to Tyrone Mayor Jim Kilmartin. They reported that he voted "no" only because he wanted more money from Gamesa.
Here's a note that I received this morning:
"I should have stated this at the meeting as I did to the newspaper. 95% of wind farms are west of the Mississippi River. I do believe wind is a good option for our country. I do not believe it is a good option for our mountain. If wind is only 30% efficient at this time in our area, it truly is not a viable business without being subsidized. As a business owner, I would not be in business very long with a 30% efficiency unless the income was tremendous. I do think about the ecological perspective and do not like the idea of these being on our watershed and I am not pleased with their commanding presence over our community.
The money is an issue but it isn't the biggest issue for me at all. I will restate that I am for wind energy as long as it is efficient and in the right location. Feel free to pass this on to your JVAS group."
Sincerely,
Jim Kilmartin
Mayor of Tyrone
(814)684-1330 - office www.tyroneboropa.com
Tyrone-A Place of Pleasant Living
sandstone wrote:The local media are guilty of a great injustice to Tyrone Mayor Jim Kilmartin. They reported that he voted "no" only because he wanted more money from Gamesa.
Here's a note that I received this morning:
"I should have stated this at the meeting as I did to the newspaper. 95% of wind farms are west of the Mississippi River. I do believe wind is a good option for our country. I do not believe it is a good option for our mountain. If wind is only 30% efficient at this time in our area, it truly is not a viable business without being subsidized. As a business owner, I would not be in business very long with a 30% efficiency unless the income was tremendous. I do think about the ecological perspective and do not like the idea of these being on our watershed and I am not pleased with their commanding presence over our community.
The money is an issue but it isn't the biggest issue for me at all. I will restate that I am for wind energy as long as it is efficient and in the right location. Feel free to pass this on to your JVAS group."
Sincerely,
Jim Kilmartin
Uh oh.
This may make "Wind Bill" rethink his position yet again.
Whew... I'm so glad that it all was clarified, that's what I understood Mayor Kilmartin to mean at that council meeting. I thought he came right out and said he was not for them and that we will wait this out for the next two years then see what options are out there. That's why I thought... that was it, that was the end, NO to the turbines.
The very next day we start hearing about it not being over and another vote may be taken, possibly, as soon as February.... this was even printed in the herald.
Please set me straight somebody .... is this over completely for at least 2 years ?? By completely over, I mean no more votes will be taken on this windmill situation, this company will be gone in 2 years, then we will see what other options are out there.
No I am not going to Flip Plop on this at this time. All the information is out there and no new information has been brought to the table. People are allowed to change their minds though as it seems Mayor Kilmartin has. I don't play the political game with pressures from lobby groups and such. I do what I think is best for the Tyrone community. Money is very important to a small community as Tyrone. Now there was a poll taken, whether you think it was objective or not, it was the best it could be at the time. If there is enough time maybe we should put together another poll next year. That would allow for plenty of time to organize something that may make everyone feel all warm and fuzzy. Look at what the Borough has right now, we have our forester that says it won't be some catastrophe up on the mountain, we have a hydrologist that says it won't hurt our water supply, and we have 55% of polled voters saying they wouldn't mind a Wind Plant up on Ice Mountain. The money certainly sounds good up front; you wouldn't have to worry about the tax issue for hopefully quite a while. I guess it concerns, at least me, that it may be possible for the State or Federal Government to come in a couple of years from now and say, Hey your going to have Turbines put in on Ice Mountain, and oh by the way, your not getting a penny for it. I am sure if you all are hitting the little bit of resistance from Tyrone Borough, just think what it would be like against the State or Feds. I am probably way off track with that thought...but you have a supposed Green administration coming in Federally, and a State i.e. Gov. Rendell who is pushing the heck out of the Turbines...It sure doesn't look like a profitable future for Municipalities that resist the Turbines early on. Anyhow it does not matter entirely what I think since I am still unable to vote on this topic. But hey it looks like you may have at least one of the No persons staying on the No side no matter what the offer may be. I have said this from the beginning we have been fine without the Turbines and I think we would be fine with the Turbines. I would support whatever Council's decision would be, and not pout and moan and groan about it. We all vote the way we vote because we think we are doing what is best for our community. If we were just a bunch of nodding heads, as we have been accused of before, then the vote would not have gone the way it did. I just think it shows the diversity of our Council and the right thing will come out of it. I am thinking more along the lines that a more thorough poll could be put together for the coming elections. Would "Save Ice Mountain" go along with something like that? If interested parties work together at the polling stations and such, then maybe a more definitive poll could be ran. I personally would not be against giving the Tyrone citizens another chance to voice their opinion. Maybe we might have a great turnout, and possibly more people interested in their local government. I will just remain positive that the State or Federal Government won't come in someday and take away what you all hold so dear, and what the Borough holds some power over at the present.
Bill Latchford wrote: Look at what the Borough has right now, we have our forester that says it won't be some catastrophe up on the mountain, we have a hydrologist that says it won't hurt our water supply, and we have 55% of polled voters saying they wouldn't mind a Wind Plant up on Ice Mountain. .
You also have the independent and objective Blair County Natural Heritage Inventory which designates Ice Mountain as a UNIQUE Blair County Natural Heritage Area OF EXCEPTIONAL CONSERVATION VALUE. The inventory specifically recommends that no additonal roads be built on Ice Mountain. You also have the independent and objective Carnegie Museum/National Aviary/Penn State golden eagle telemetry study that shows Ice Mountain to be important migratory and wintering habitat for golden eagles. The researchers specifically stated that an industrial windplant on Ice Mountain will harm golden eagles. And we have a borough poll that shows that almost half the residents of the borough oppose the windplant in spite of the money. :flag:
Your forester, by his own admission, is not an expert on ecology, and thus is not competent to counter the Blair County Natural Heritage Inventory, which was done from 2002-2006 by ecologists of the Western Pennsylvania Conservancy working for the Blair County Planning Commission. The inventory results were approved by the Blair County Commissioners in 2006. The Blair County Natural Heritage Inventory was done with public participation, with displays at local venues, had a steering committee, and produced a public document that was sent to all municipalities. Thus, the Blair County Natural Heritage Inventory carries MUCH more weight than your forester's opinion, and your forester admits that.
You also have Ice Mountain as part of the Allegheny Front Important Bird Area (IBA) designated by the independent and objective Ornithological Technical Committee of the Pennsylvania Biological Survey. Snyder Township's windplant ordinance, like neighboring townships, prohibits windplants in IBAs. Why would a Tyrone Borough councilman vote YES to a windplant unless he/she wanted to challenge Snyder Township?!
Regarding your question about a repeat poll, SAVE ICE MOUNTAIN insists that Tyrone Borough follow standard operating procedure and conduct a public hearing before council votes on the windplant issue. That's what the other affected municipalities have done. That's what the borough ought to do. Check out the post by Fightin' Irish a few pages back. :flag:
Last edited by Ice Man on Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
My2Cents wrote:Whew... I'm so glad that it all was clarified, that's what I understood Mayor Kilmartin to mean at that council meeting. I thought he came right out and said he was not for them and that we will wait this out for the next two years then see what options are out there. That's why I thought... that was it, that was the end, NO to the turbines.
The very next day we start hearing about it not being over and another vote may be taken, possibly, as soon as February.... this was even printed in the herald.
Please set me straight somebody .... is this over completely for at least 2 years ?? By completely over, I mean no more votes will be taken on this windmill situation, this company will be gone in 2 years, then we will see what other options are out there.
Tyrone Borough has an exclusive contract with Gamesa till 2011. Until that time, the borough may not negotiate with any OTHER windplant developer. Gamesa, however, could change its offer and council could vote on that new offer at any time.
Mayor Kilmartin's very clear statement posted by sandstone indicates that his vote will remain NO. Indications are that Councilman Kosoglow also will remain a NO vote as will Councilman Hanzir.
Councilpersons Werner, Grazier and Bryan have shown their hands.
SAVE ICE MOUNTAIN urges its supporters to ask Councilwoman Pat Stoner to vote NO. :flag:
Last edited by Ice Man on Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
and what do I see? 8 Council members who don't give two squats about what their town wants. Ohhhhhhhh........but there's a change a comin down the road!!
:bluebounce:
