Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

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My2Cents
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by My2Cents »

I think your avatar is beautiful "something to say". Is that a view of our Ice Mountain ?? The photo looks so serene....
I can't help but think, it looks like the calm before the potential storm that is knocking at its door.
Something to say
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by Something to say »

My2Cents wrote:I think your avatar is beautiful "something to say". Is that a view of our Ice Mountain ?? The photo looks so serene....
I can't help but think, it looks like the calm before the potential storm that is knocking at its door.
Well thank you My2Cents, but no it's not Ice Mountain... Tipton Reservoir.... We drove up over the mountain last evening....oh my .....it was beautiful. The trees all laden with fresh, white snow....I grabbed a few pics...but took them all while we were on the move...most of them ...fuzzy. We didn't have a pull-over spot...and there was SOMEONE behind us.....wanting to speed down over. He, in fact, passed us near Reservoir Park. The road was not even plowed yet and this maniac....oh, don't get me started on that next ...lol.
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by Something to say »

My2Cents...this one was taken on Tyrone side... I soo want to grab a few pics up there while the snow is laying. But it seems everytime I go to do so... something happens...my batteries are low...traffic won't allow..etc. Anyway...Sight to see up there right now... Absolutely Breathtaking.
My2Cents
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by My2Cents »

Oh, I just noticed you changed the picture.... this one too, is very pretty. :thumb:
salaman
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by salaman »

Create an agency to oversee energy claims
January 21, 2009 by John Droz jr. in Watertown Daily Times

Imagine this scenario: pharmaceutical companies selling any drug they feel like, having no scientific testing to support their drug's efficacy, making any claim that's in their financial interest, and having no federal or state oversight (e.g. Food and Drug Adminsitration) regarding any of these matters.

Would that make any sense at all? Would we be healthier under that setup? Would you be surprised that bogus products would proliferate? Well, that is exactly the absurd situation we currently have with electrical energy.

The FDA exists because health is a top priority — but energy and health now significantly overlap. For instance some energy pollutants (e.g. from coal facilities) are known carcinogens. More importantly, many believe that the sum effect of energy contaminants will result in the human species demise. What trumps that?

Currently electrical energy profiteers can sell essentially any "alternative" source of energy they feel like, have no independent scientific testing to support its efficacy, and make almost any assertion that's in their financial interest. Wind power is an example.

Since this fiasco exists due to the lack of adequate oversight, the best solution is to create an Electrical Energy Administration, which would be given Food and Drug Administration-like responsibilities.

In short, companies wanting to sell an alternative that garnered financial incentives (or counted toward a Renewable Portfolio Standard), would be required to submit extensive, independent, objective scientific testing to verify that their alternative was at least equal to conventional electrical power sources.

The EEA wouldn't do testing themselves, but rather would be a panel of independent scientific experts who would evaluate the evidence presented, and approve or reject proposed alternatives based on its technical, economic and environmental merits. Additionally, the EEA would have the authority to subsequently see that there wasn't false advertising, and would be able to pull an alternative power source if new adverse information was revealed. Such an agency would be a perfect watchdog over economic-stimulus electrical energy dollars.

If done correctly (learning from FDA experiences), the economic and environmental benefits to consumers, taxpayers, ratepayers, and the country as a whole would be profound.

The alternative is to continue down a senseless street: essentially a completely unregulated Wild West bonanza, where smooth-talking lobbyists and their shills are peddling snake oil, where no claim is too outrageous, and over a trillion dollars will be sucked out of the pockets of us unsuspecting marks — with miniscule merits.
Web link: http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/article/2009012...
sammie
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by sammie »

salaman wrote:Create an agency to oversee energy claims
January 21, 2009 by John Droz jr. in Watertown Daily Times

Imagine this scenario: pharmaceutical companies selling any drug they feel like, having no scientific testing to support their drug's efficacy, making any claim that's in their financial interest, and having no federal or state oversight (e.g. Food and Drug Adminsitration) regarding any of these matters.

Would that make any sense at all? Would we be healthier under that setup? Would you be surprised that bogus products would proliferate? Well, that is exactly the absurd situation we currently have with electrical energy.

The FDA exists because health is a top priority — but energy and health now significantly overlap. For instance some energy pollutants (e.g. from coal facilities) are known carcinogens. More importantly, many believe that the sum effect of energy contaminants will result in the human species demise. What trumps that?

Currently electrical energy profiteers can sell essentially any "alternative" source of energy they feel like, have no independent scientific testing to support its efficacy, and make almost any assertion that's in their financial interest. Wind power is an example.

Since this fiasco exists due to the lack of adequate oversight, the best solution is to create an Electrical Energy Administration, which would be given Food and Drug Administration-like responsibilities.

In short, companies wanting to sell an alternative that garnered financial incentives (or counted toward a Renewable Portfolio Standard), would be required to submit extensive, independent, objective scientific testing to verify that their alternative was at least equal to conventional electrical power sources.

The EEA wouldn't do testing themselves, but rather would be a panel of independent scientific experts who would evaluate the evidence presented, and approve or reject proposed alternatives based on its technical, economic and environmental merits. Additionally, the EEA would have the authority to subsequently see that there wasn't false advertising, and would be able to pull an alternative power source if new adverse information was revealed. Such an agency would be a perfect watchdog over economic-stimulus electrical energy dollars.

If done correctly (learning from FDA experiences), the economic and environmental benefits to consumers, taxpayers, ratepayers, and the country as a whole would be profound.

The alternative is to continue down a senseless street: essentially a completely unregulated Wild West bonanza, where smooth-talking lobbyists and their shills are peddling snake oil, where no claim is too outrageous, and over a trillion dollars will be sucked out of the pockets of us unsuspecting marks — with miniscule merits.
Web link: http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/article/2009012...
Great letter. John Droz, Jr. now has his slide presentation posted on line:

(click lower right hand corner for full screen)
http://www.slideshare.net/JohnDroz/ener ... esentation
Ice Man
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by Ice Man »

http://altoonamirror.com/page/content.d ... ml?nav=725

Gamesa pulls windmill request

By Kay Stephens, kstephens@altoonamirror.com
POSTED: January 22, 2009

What: Logan Township Supervisors meeting

When: 6 p.m.

Where: Township municipal building, 800 39th St.


The request for an expansion of Logan Township's wind zone has been withdrawn because plans for a wind farm are being redesigned, Gamesa Energy USA representatives said Wednesday.

Logan Township Supervisors meet tonight and were scheduled to vote on Gamesa's request after holding a public hearing.

"We are withdrawing our request," project manager Tim Vought said. "We've been looking at revising the project and sent a letter to the supervisors asking them not to vote at this time."

Gamesa worked for months on plans to put a wind farm in the Chestnut Flats area of the township, which is zoned to allow the construction of wind turbines. Last year, the company said it needed more acreage for a financially viable operation and asked if it could put eight wind turbines outside the zone, north of Route 36. :huh:

The request stirred some controversy and fear among Avalon Road and Juniata Gap residents, who will be able to see and hear the turbines. The township's Planning Commission held a public meeting last year and drew a lot of comments in opposition. In December, the commission cast a unanimous vote recommending commissioners reject the request.

"The day after that meeting, we started looking at other options," Vought said.

Supervisors have not publicly commented on how they intended to vote but indicated that they wanted input from the Planning Commission before deciding.

Vought and project developer Jon Baker attended the commission's public meeting and voting session.

"We are looking at a lot of options and trying to find something that works for everybody," Vought said.

Vought initially asked the township to delay the vote, but Township Manager Bonnie Lewis said the request could not be granted because it was advertised as an agenda item for tonight's meeting.

Vought said he and Baker plan to attend the meeting and remain available to address concerns.

"We value the input of residents and take seriously our commitment to the communities where we operate," Vought said in a letter to Lewis. "Our goal is to use the information we have received from township officials and others to determine how best to proceed with plans for the Chestnut Flats project."

Mirror Staff Writer Kay Stephens is at 946-7456.
My2Cents
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by My2Cents »

Ice Man wrote:http://altoonamirror.com/page/content.d ... ml?nav=725

Gamesa pulls windmill request

By Kay Stephens, kstephens@altoonamirror.com
POSTED: January 22, 2009

"We value the input of residents and take seriously our commitment to the communities where we operate," Vought said in a letter to Lewis. "Our goal is to use the information we have received from township officials and others to determine how best to proceed with plans for the Chestnut Flats project."

"Value the input of residents," that's a joke !!! They are on a mission. If they truly value the input of the residents, they would be pitching their "plans" and leaving our ridgetops alone. If they "value the input of residents" then why are they continuing to "determine how best to proceed with the plans ??" I hope someone is guarding that beautiful back door.
Something to say
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by Something to say »

Jeez...this company is worse than the abhorrent child that just won't take no for an answer. Yanno..the one that whines and cries and begs and throws itself on the floor....the kind you'd just like to smack.

One thing is certain. These companies stand to profit one helluva lot more than the piddling amount offered to the communities they want to devour.

That is the answer to the question Bill posted recently... This is exactly why they are targeting Ice Mountain "a land resource that just barely meets the requirements to make the Turbines work."


:slap: GAMESA and all the other money-hungry developers out there desecrating our ridgetops and taking advantage of needy communities.
Ice Man
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by Ice Man »

Gamesa claims that less than one acre of forest was cleared for each of its turbines at the Allegheny Ridge Wind Farm. Check this out : http://www.jvas.org/cc_forest_impact_ar_wndplnt.html
sammie
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by sammie »

Ice Man wrote:Gamesa claims that less than one acre of forest was cleared for each of its turbines at the Allegheny Ridge Wind Farm. Check this out : http://www.jvas.org/cc_forest_impact_ar_wndplnt.html

"The forest-interior impact is among the worst at windplants built along forested ridgetops of Appalachia — both in terms of total acres and especially for its "per turbine" loss."


Thanks, Dan Boone, for scientifically exposing the lies of Gamesa. And they are planning to add 30 ? more turbines to that! What a tragedy.
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by Ice Man »

http://www.jvas.org/news_hot.html

Gone With The Windmills?

A Plea to President Obama to Save the National Forests of Appalachia

1,230 words by Chris Bolgiano, Mildly Amusing Nature Writer

bolgiace@jmu.edu www.chrisbolgiano.com

Dear President Obama:

Thanks to you, America is turning green again, nearly forty years after I went “Back to the Land” as part of the first Earth Day generation You came within twenty miles of my passive-aggressive solar homestead on Cross Mountain last October, when you spoke in Harrisonburg, Virginia.

Surely, as you flew into the Shenandoah Valley airport, you noticed to the west the long, sinuous lines of forest-covered mountains, fall colors blazing in faux fire.

A century ago you would have seen smoke billowing from real fires, caused by a rampage of steam-powered logging. Flooding caused by deforestation of the mountains became so costly by 1911 that Congress passed the Weeks Act, authorizing the U.S. Forest Service to buy land from willing sellers and repair environmental damage. Some of the highest ridges you saw when you looked westward are in national forests that were established then, along the spine of the Southern Appalachian Mountains.

These forests now face their greatest threat in a century.

Reflecting a nearly 50% nationwide increase in wind electricity plants in 2007, developers are arriving in what they themselves called “a gold rush” at a recent industry conference. There, a wind map ranked thin red currents along the highest Appalachian ridges as just possibly strong enough to power turbines for massive industrial wind installations.

Glossy ads for wind power always show turbines in open fields, never in forests. That’s because every turbine requires up to five acres of deforestation. Hundreds of turbines are being built here, burgeoning to tens of thousands if the U.S. Department of Energy indiscriminately pursues its “20% Wind Energy By 2030” program. Do the math, and factor in the forest fragmentation that multiplies the loss of habitat, and the super-wide new roads that destroy the last remote, wild ridges.

Slender, rocky ridges are blasted and bulldozed to flatten pads for turbines. Each pad requires hundreds of tons of concrete. After the 25 year life span of the huge machines, the pads remain as dead ground but possibly good tennis courts in a summer camp for giants in the future.

Deforestation is the largest source of greenhouse gas emissions after fossil fuel burning. The rest of the world agreed at the recent U.N. climate summit to protect maturing forests that sequester huge amounts of carbon dioxide -- like those now healing from old abuse in the Southern Appalachians. In Transition to Green, the 400 pages of nature tips sent you by a coalition of environmental organizations, the first recommendation for the U.S. Department of Agriculture is to “manage the national forest system to secure climate benefits.”
Industrial wind will blow this opportunity away.

It’s already blowing away a lot of wildlife. Turbine blades reach 450 feet above ridge crests where songbirds migrate, bats feed, and eagles rise on thermals. Just across the state line in West Virginia, thousands of creatures are being killed every year at new wind plants, the highest kills ever documented worldwide from turbines. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service strongly recommends against turbines on nearby Shenandoah Mountain due to the likelihood of killing endangered species, yet several projects are underway.

Some of the people living near turbines suffer from chronic sleeplessness and other symptoms of Wind Turbine Syndrome (including depression over loss of property values).

Death, destruction and insomnia are marketed to urban consumers as “green” electricity, what little there is of it. Turbines produce only about 30% or less of their maximum rated capacity, and some of that is lost along hundreds of miles of transmission lines. When the wind does blow, the aging lines can hardly handle the surge.

What drives this high-cost/low-benefit gold rush is the federal production tax credit. More tax breaks beckon in national forests, where no local property taxes are levied so local communities wouldn’t share in revenues produced by turbines, plus the Forest Service helps pay for building roads. In the three years that the federal tax credit hasn’t been reauthorized since first enacted in 1992, the skyrocketing wind industry plateaued like a mountaintop-removal coalmine.

The coal mining that has ravaged the land and people in part of Appalachia for a century is our major source of electricity, and is obscenely destructive to forests. But destroying more forests in order to stop destroying forests doesn’t make sense. And building industrial wind plants in Appalachia isn’t change. It’s a 21st century version of the same old pattern of taking value out and leaving costs behind.

These ancient mountains are well-documented as the biologically richest temperate woodlands in the world, one of North America’s greatest natural treasures, rich in globally rare species and communities, including human ones. So you can’t dismiss my aging hippie protest merely as NIMBY, which in any case is simply love of place. It breaks my heart to see these murdered old mountains assaulted again.

Since 1911, the Forest Service has salvaged the land and regenerated trees in watersheds that, today, supply drinking water to millions of people (not to mention clean air). Tens of millions of people depend on these national forests for access to the outdoors, spending in local economies as they go. Timber from regulated harvests supports local companies.

National forests are the last vestige of the rural commons, where, as you noted in a recent speech, “the proud tradition of hunting is passed on through the generations.” Deer eat my flowers and I eat the deer in an Appalachian adaptation of flower power.

No flowers bloom now; the mountain forests you saw in autumn glory are bark naked and blue with winter cold. Warmed by firewood from my hundred acres of oaks, I’m writing you on a computer plugged into nine solar panels that power my house. I believe in green energy so much that I’ve started a new savings fund to buy one of those million plug-in hybrid cars that you’ve promised to get on the road by 2015.

Industrial wind power has a place, and T. Boone Pickens knows exactly where that is: On the plains, where winds are incessant. Other potentially low impact sites are mid-western cropfields, eastern strip mines, and off-shore waters, much closer to the coastal cities that need the power.

But in forested rural areas like Appalachia, community-scale rather than industrial-scale would better contribute to your goal of 10% of our electricity from renewable sources by 2012. Solar panels and small wind turbines have enormous potential for on-site, small-scale power generation, with hardly a ripple on the grid.

Consider how much stronger our nation would be against disasters both natural and criminal if schools, hospitals, community centers, businesses, nursing homes, farms, houses and apartment buildings across the country made enough electricity to pump drinking water and refrigerate food.

Americans haven’t enjoyed that kind of independence since they drank from dippers and packed pond ice in sawdust for the summer icebox. The decentralization of electricity represents a new perspective on the old rallying cry of democracy, “Power to the People!”

Can’t we make some of that $150 billion you want to invest in “building a clean energy future” available to ordinary people, small businesses and neighborhoods, as well as distant corporations? And can’t we keep our national forests intact for future generations?
My hope for change is that you will answer, “Yes We Can!”

Yours in the Red, White, and Blue Ridge,
Chris Bolgiano

P.S. Please see below for supporting documents.

Chris Bolgiano, on her deck beneath rooftop solar panels, is the author of five books, innumerable articles, and one short history of a small place -- her own community.

Supporting Documents
(A Very Few of Very, Very Many)

Arnett, E.B., et al. 2007. Impacts of wind energy facilities on wildlife and wildlife habitat. Wildlife Society Technical Review 07-2. Bethesday, MD: The Wildlife Society. The Wildlife Society is a national association of natural resource managers.

National Library of Medicine. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/ Pubmed and Environmental Health and Toxicology databases (approx. 30 other citations available):
- Harding, G. et al. Wind turbines, flicker, and photosensitive epilepsy: characterizing the flashing that may precipitate seizures and optimizing guidelines to prevent them. Epilepsia. 2008 Jun;49(6):1095-8.
- Findeis, H. and E. Peters. Disturbing effects of low frequency sound immissions (sic) and vibrations in residential buildings. Noise Health. 2004 Apr-Jun;6(23):29-35.
- Pedersen, E. Wind turbine noise, annoyance & self-reported health and well-being in different living environments. Occup. Environ. Med. 2007 Jul;64(7):480-6.

National Research Council of the National Academies. Environmental Impacts of Wind-Energy Projects. 2007. Washington, D.C.: The National Academies Press. www.nap.edu

Pierpont, Nina. Wind Turbine Syndrome: a Report on a Natural Experiment. In publication. Excerpts at www.windturbinesyndrome.com/.

Transition to Green: Environmental Transition Recommendations for the Obama Administration. Nov. 2008. docs.nrdc.org/legislation/leg_08112401.asp

U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Elkins, West Virginia Field Office. November 16, 2007. 12 page letter “Re: Proposed Construction and Operation of a Wind Power Facility, In Pendleton and Hardy Counties, WV.” vawind.org/Assets/Docs/USFWS-111607.pdf

Please see also www.vawind.org for extensive further coverage of wind power issues in eastern forested areas. See also www.windaction.org, www.nationalwind.org/, www.stopillwind and hundreds of other sites for the worldwide grass-roots struggle to make industrial wind responsive to environmental and human health concerns
Ms. Muffet
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by Ms. Muffet »

Hi Everyone, I was born in Alaska, grew up in Northwestern Wisconsin, lived in central Texas, and over in Germany. I will be moving into the area shortly. I am a green freak....which means that I also love nature. While driving on I-99 in January I was absolutely in awe of the hills. They were gorgeous even in the barreness of winter. I was also shocked with some of the buildings in town. Instead of putting up these monstrosities on a beautiful ridge and wrecking both natural habitat and views that bring in tourists, why not use residential wind turbines like Windterra. (http://www.windterra.com/) These can be mounted on any roof, require less wind speed, make less noise, and deliver power right to the home. Also over here in Germany, they have several solar collectors on roads attached to the light poles and wind turbines mounted on them as well. They have the huge wind turbines a few miles from us....they are cool to see, but mounted on agricultural land and even then they are ugly when you get up to them and more often then not they are not rotating for some reason or other.

I don't think just wind, or just solar, or just anything is going to fix our problem, but I do think that if these residential alternative energy sources were used it would go a long way to decreasing oil dependance. After all, if we can get some decent electrical cars, the energy to fuel them would be free and non polluting.

Not only that, but becoming a green community would help bring jobs to the area and refurbish a lot of those construction jobs that have been lost recently. Hoping its still beautiful when I get there...
My2Cents
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by My2Cents »

Sorry Ms. Muffet, I have to disagree completely with the "windterra" theory.... they are for tall buildings in big cities where they can hardly be seen.
Having turbines on Ice Mountain is bad enough !!!
Those distracting "windterra" things are just what we need spinning around on our downtown rooftops !!! Pleeeeeze :eek:.
P.S. Thanks for the great info above Ice Man !!!
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by SoccerMom »

I've been assigned to a new project at Penn State, which involves interviewing researchers of renewable energy. Most of them agree, not one thing will solve all our energy problems. It will take a combination of solar, wind, nuclear, etc. to meet our future energy demands. Most of the researchers I've talked to also agree that wind energy is simply a band-aid until solar and nuclear energy can be made more available. Also, our energy sources need to be localized, and take advantage of the natural resources in our area. What will work for one area may not work for us. Amazingly, they were all in agreement about Gamesa and Josh Framel. They feel Gamesa js a good company, but are very unimpressed by Framel. They could not believe a project of this size was given to him to manage. They feel he is nothing but a talking head, who has no knowledge beyond what he's been told by his company.
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