Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

[My2Cents]

GeorgeM..... that was an outstanding post, it just doesn't get much better than that !! There is so much to understand and so much to gain by understanding. You certainly did go all out in that presentation. Thank you so much. I must say, we have certainly had our share of very outstanding and intellectual posts presented on this subject, by many individuals who are in the know. This has been a very educational experience. With all that has been put forth, proven, and backed up I cannot see how anything could ever be questioned.

[sandstone]

Yesterday's post by George M. ought to be required reading for all Tyrone Borough Council members.

[zapatista]

Yesterday's post by George M. ought to be required reading for all Tyrone Borough Council members.

I agree. I think you could describe it as having "unique" and "exceptional conservation value."

[150thBucktailCo.I]

The footprint of the turbines is not as bad as mentioned earlier.

You gotta be out of your mind. Footprint not as bad?!?! You could see clearly see how big the multiple gouges that were carved into the forest that was created by Gamesa or whomever put these in. They are huge. And that's from the air. I'm sure being on ground level is 100 times worse.

And great observation, 2cents. There wasn't a single turbine moving. No wonder they account for approximately 1%. Lucky they are doing that much. Anyone who has lived in this area for a long period of time knows that typically the mornings and evenings are calm, and in the afternoon when the warm air starts moving, that's when the wind starts blowing. Windmills in this area are ridiculous and a waste.

This whole idea is a fraud, just and only about money conveniently wrapped in a disguise called "alternative energy production". Nothing else, nothing more.

:mob: <--- This is what it will take people. Time to destroy "Dr. Gamesa-stein's" monster.

This is the type of hype that gives so many people a bad name. You should really learn how to get your point across a bit more civilized. Anyhow, point is still taken no matter how barbaric it was presented.

I totally disagree with you, Bill. I have witnessed and experienced far too many times that when things are "civilized" .. (i.e. "political") .. that the group in opposition to an act or a concept (conceived or supported by a board, council, or legislature/government) that could negatively affect a large number of people or things is typically viewed as a non-threat, or passive if you will. And usually, those bad acts or concepts are passed anyway.

However, when people (or "mobs") voice their opinion loudly and en masse, the opposite occurs.

Perfect example in PA was the recent PA Pay Raise debacle that continues to resonate through the PA legislature. Had individuals like Russ Diamond, Gene Stilp, Tim Potts, Eric Epstein, Chris Lilik, Matt Brouillette, and many others (including media sources) not encouraged and/or formed mass ("mob") protests and events through out the state, and continually spoken out loudly against that act, more than likely public pressure would've never been built up and it would never have been repealed. Although, perhaps in your view, that was probably "barbaric".

It's those entities such as "boards, councils, and governments" and their representatives that love to portray these type of people (probably myself included) as "radicals" and other related terms.

And by the way.. for those who don't know...

***Former Sen. Bob Jubelirer is now lobbying for Gamesa Technology Corporation, Inc. and all subsidiaries and affiliates, including: Gamesa Energy USA, LLC; Gamesa Wind US, LLC; Gamesa Wind PA, LLC; Towers & Metallic Structures, Inc.; Fiberblade, LLC; and Fiberblade East, LLC.***

http://www.palobbyingservices.state.pa. ... spx?id=346

***Former Sen. Bob Jubelirer chief-of-staff, Mike Long, is now lobbying for the "environmental" group Penn Future***

How about that coincidence!?!?!

...Big Money (Gamesa) equipped with Political Connections with Political Favors (Rendell and Jubelirer)...

[SMOKEJUMPER]

All that I have read so far on this post is how bad that these windmills are. :mob: I for one have my doubts about them like everone else, but I feel that they will be a good thing. yes the borough will make money on them which means that council will have a reason not to raise taxes again. some birds will be killed but all in all I myself can live with that. as for comparing it to coal plants and nucular plants to make power, there is no contest. the wind is free and has always been there. the coal plants produce CO2 emissions that are released into the atmosphere which is a green house gas ( global warming ). a nuclar plant could wipe out a good part of the state if there is a melt down or an explosion. and if nothing goes wrong we have spent rods and contaminated water that needs to be desposed of . as for the wind mills, if the gear housing leakes some, there would be oil that would need to be cleaned up. yes there are other ways. geothermo, solar, water wheels put into a river. when these are asked to be put into play are we again going to say not in my back yard? :huh: solar panales take up a lot of space too. our generation has a responsablity to our kids to provide for there future as we may not see the out come of the wind mills and the other alternitves but they will. do we want our kids to blame us for not doing anything when we had the chance?. FOR ME, PUT IN THE WIND MILLS. :thumb:

[My2Cents]

SMOKEJUMPER.... I'm glad you voiced your opinion now, before the final exam. Please read all that has been posted here... go into the links, etc. there is a lot of valuable and factual information that has been proven (especially by the experts)on what these windmills will and will not do and why we do not want them anywhere in our area. After reading thru the posts, and digesting all that is said, you will then see that you haven't been doing your homework.

[My2Cents]

P.S. SMOKEJUMPER.... You mentioned in the beginning of your post that "All that I have read so far on this post is how bad these windmills are." Shouldn't that tell you something right there ?? There is nothing good to say about these windmills. If there were, I'm sure within the past 7 months we would have heard something.

[Bill Latchford]

The footprint of the turbines is not as bad as mentioned earlier.

You gotta be out of your mind. Footprint not as bad?!?! You could see clearly see how big the multiple gouges that were carved into the forest that was created by Gamesa or whomever put these in. They are huge. And that's from the air. I'm sure being on ground level is 100 times worse.

And great observation, 2cents. There wasn't a single turbine moving. No wonder they account for approximately 1%. Lucky they are doing that much. Anyone who has lived in this area for a long period of time knows that typically the mornings and evenings are calm, and in the afternoon when the warm air starts moving, that's when the wind starts blowing. Windmills in this area are ridiculous and a waste.

This whole idea is a fraud, just and only about money conveniently wrapped in a disguise called "alternative energy production". Nothing else, nothing more.

:mob: <--- This is what it will take people. Time to destroy "Dr. Gamesa-stein's" monster.

This is the type of hype that gives so many people a bad name. You should really learn how to get your point across a bit more civilized. Anyhow, point is still taken no matter how barbaric it was presented.

I totally disagree with you, Bill. I have witnessed and experienced far too many times that when things are "civilized" .. (i.e. "political") .. that the group in opposition to an act or a concept (conceived or supported by a board, council, or legislature/government) that could negatively affect a large number of people or things is typically viewed as a non-threat, or passive if you will. And usually, those bad acts or concepts are passed anyway.

However, when people (or "mobs") voice their opinion loudly and en masse, the opposite occurs.

Perfect example in PA was the recent PA Pay Raise debacle that continues to resonate through the PA legislature. Had individuals like Russ Diamond, Gene Stilp, Tim Potts, Eric Epstein, Chris Lilik, Matt Brouillette, and many others (including media sources) not encouraged and/or formed mass ("mob") protests and events through out the state, and continually spoken out loudly against that act, more than likely public pressure would've never been built up and it would never have been repealed. Although, perhaps in your view, that was probably "barbaric".

It's those entities such as "boards, councils, and governments" and their representatives that love to portray these type of people (probably myself included) as "radicals" and other related terms.

And by the way.. for those who don't know...

***Former Sen. Bob Jubelirer is now lobbying for Gamesa Technology Corporation, Inc. and all subsidiaries and affiliates, including: Gamesa Energy USA, LLC; Gamesa Wind US, LLC; Gamesa Wind PA, LLC; Towers & Metallic Structures, Inc.; Fiberblade, LLC; and Fiberblade East, LLC.***

http://www.palobbyingservices.state.pa. ... spx?id=346

***Former Sen. Bob Jubelirer chief-of-staff, Mike Long, is now lobbying for the "environmental" group Penn Future***

How about that coincidence!?!?!

...Big Money (Gamesa) equipped with Political Connections with Political Favors (Rendell and Jubelirer)...

Let me put it this way...I for one would rather sit down to a face to face and discuss an issue than be screamed at because someone feels they are right. If we both were screamers and thought both of us were right....who would win? the one that could beat their thoughts into the other? A chill pill and a cool down period and then a civil conversation so each person can get a point across. That is how I have taken most of this. If I just ran at the first sign of people bad mouthing me or screaming they are right and I am wrong at me I would not have learned as much as I have thus far. But usually screaming only annoys me not gets me to support another's point of view.

[zapatista]

Let me put it this way...I for one would rather sit down to a face to face and discuss an issue than be screamed at because someone feels they are right. If we both were screamers and thought both of us were right....who would win? the one that could beat their thoughts into the other? A chill pill and a cool down period and then a civil conversation so each person can get a point across. That is how I have taken most of this. If I just ran at the first sign of people bad mouthing me or screaming they are right and I am wrong at me I would not have learned as much as I have thus far. But usually screaming only annoys me not gets me to support another's point of view.

If this type of decision was based only on the merits of each side's case, then you might be right.

However, it's not.

Each party uses all the tools at their disposal to move the decision in their favor.

Gamesa uses its deep pockets to purchase slick PR and political patronage.

Concerned citizens influence political decisions by amassing large numbers that threaten the political status quo.
Lacking the money to purchase slick ad campaigns, they garner support in a different way.
The more noise they make, the more attention they get .
The more attention they get, the greater the chances are that others will be moved to take action.

[My2Cents]

Thank you "zapatista." You saved me a come back 'cause I certainly didn't hear any "screaming" from Bucktail, or anyone else for that matter. He was only an individual trying to get a point across. Accusing one, who didn't need a "chill pill" in the first place, of "screaming" only stirs the pot.

[150thBucktailCo.I]

I sure would like to get into a long discussion about the latest response, but that will only take away from my point and the topic.

Which is that it will take a large group of local people to influence a boro council decision against Gamesa. And the more, the better. And the message brought forth must be clear. I fully believe that.

Frankly, I do not trust governments to do the "right" (in every definition of the word) thing unless they are pressured by the people.

In my opinion, this is a classic "David VS Goliath" battle. Look at the incentives Gamesa is dangling in front of council. Look at the political influence and monetary resources Gamesa will be able to use. However, will they be respond directly, appropriately, and immediately to the specific information that will be brought against them? I have a difficult time believing that. I believe Gamesa will want general questions and will only have general answers. And I think that they might try to "poo-poo" any information that would call their plan into question. I would also expect Gamesa to offer additional incentives to the Boro Council if things don't quite go their way initially.

Bill, you are a local politician. I am curious to hear your view/thoughts in regards to the information I posted about Mr. Jubelirer now being a lobbyist for Gamesa (brought in by Rendell), and his former COS now being a lobbyist for PennFuture who supports Gamesa.

Suspicious, or just a coincidence?

[Bill Latchford]

It is just the way I like to do things. I don't believe things need to get radical, but...I guess if there is something the people really want to make sure goes their way they need to speak up. I just believe if they showed up to a Council meeting once in a while that more would get accomplished for the people. Maybe that is the way it is for small municipalities...No one shows up until it is something they deem effects them personally. I have enjoyed my public service...It just doesn't seem like the public cares much about their own town sometimes. The majority of responses against the Wind Plant issue have been made from people outside our community thus far. We are now just starting to get in some good input from the towns people. Just think if I had not made myself accessible to this board...We have had Public meetings every month, but have only had 1 or 2 where people showed up to give an opinion. The time where many showed up from the JVA was nice to have all the input, but it was to much to fast and if it were not for this board and my need to understand all aspects of the windmill issue I would still be in the dark. Like i said I am not sure where Council is on the issue.
I also try to stay a bit more positive, to the point I take offence to people saying that Council is not listening to them. I know I am listening and I truly believe the rest of Council is listening to the persons that are letting them have it over this issue. Not sure what else can be said...We are just people trying to do the right thing for the community that has put us here to be their voice. Like what has happened here when the issue is important enough and people are made aware of it...they come out and voice it and let us know. If we know what the majority wants, within reason, we certainly should vote their way, unless it is outright the wrong way for the Borough to go.
One thing I have never understood though, Some have said the Borough is in it for the money...I don't get that, how does that do anything personally for an individual Council Member? I mean the only thing along the lines of the money, I thought we would be able to offset future rate increases for services on the sewer side of things for the residents. How is that not a good thing? I can see how people from outside the Borough could care less about our sewer rates going up, but I was looking at trying to help our community out, if the leasing of the land went through to Gamesa.
There are always pluses and minuses to every decision a Council has to make. Sometimes those conditions are not favorable or the line is so darn thin. It is easy for someone that is not going to be effected by something to say don't put a windmill up it will hurt the land. But when I have a whole community with a good chunk of them on a fixed income with possible future rate increase on their sewer bills to look out for. It just gets very confusing sometimes when people just don't care about a community and only care about their own agendas. That is where local politics and state and federal politics are different. I think we on local Councils and such care about our people in our community and the politics higher up just have to many people to care about that they start looking at a different picture. I want to always care about the people in my town and always want to do my best to serve their needs, Not the needs of lets say all of Blair County or the State of Pennsylvania. We need help on the bottom rungs of the ladder too.

[Bill Latchford]

I sure would like to get into a long discussion about the latest response, but that will only take away from my point and the topic.

Which is that it will take a large group of local people to influence a boro council decision against Gamesa. And the more, the better. And the message brought forth must be clear. I fully believe that.

Frankly, I do not trust governments to do the "right" (in every definition of the word) thing unless they are pressured by the people.

In my opinion, this is a classic "David VS Goliath" battle. Look at the incentives Gamesa is dangling in front of council. Look at the political influence and monetary resources Gamesa will be able to use. However, will they be respond directly, appropriately, and immediately to the specific information that will be brought against them? I have a difficult time believing that. I believe Gamesa will want general questions and will only have general answers. And I think that they might try to "poo-poo" any information that would call their plan into question. I would also expect Gamesa to offer additional incentives to the Boro Council if things don't quite go their way initially.

Bill, you are a local politician. I am curious to hear your view/thoughts in regards to the information I posted about Mr. Jubelirer now being a lobbyist for Gamesa (brought in by Rendell), and his former COS now being a lobbyist for PennFuture who supports Gamesa.

Suspicious, or just a coincidence?

Let me look over it with a clear head and i will get right back to you on it Bucktail...Thanks for the informationg...

[Bill Latchford]

Let me put it this way...I for one would rather sit down to a face to face and discuss an issue than be screamed at because someone feels they are right. If we both were screamers and thought both of us were right....who would win? the one that could beat their thoughts into the other? A chill pill and a cool down period and then a civil conversation so each person can get a point across. That is how I have taken most of this. If I just ran at the first sign of people bad mouthing me or screaming they are right and I am wrong at me I would not have learned as much as I have thus far. But usually screaming only annoys me not gets me to support another's point of view.

If this type of decision was based only on the merits of each side's case, then you might be right.

However, it's not.

Each party uses all the tools at their disposal to move the decision in their favor.

Gamesa uses its deep pockets to purchase slick PR and political patronage.

Concerned citizens influence political decisions by amassing large numbers that threaten the political status quo.
Lacking the money to purchase slick ad campaigns, they garner support in a different way.
The more noise they make, the more attention they get .
The more attention they get, the greater the chances are that others will be moved to take action.

Very Well Put...Keep in mind though....There are things that people raise their voices about that I believe most would disagree with, but they get heard right now more than others....I wish I could go into it, but your point is well taken...and applies very much to the topic at hand...I personally like it when people show up to a Council meeting and things can be discussed. I know I am not a huge fan of time limits and that on public comment time...but who knows maybe there might be a change in some of that stuff at Council meetings.

[Bill Latchford]

Thank you "zapatista." You saved me a come back 'cause I certainly didn't hear any "screaming" from Bucktail, or anyone else for that matter. He was only an individual trying to get a point across. Accusing one, who didn't need a "chill pill" in the first place, of "screaming" only stirs the pot.

My2Cents...My thought on what Bucktail was saying to me was the total disrespect for my opinion. If I thought it was not so bad, that is because I don't put as much thought into the ecosystem as apparently Bucktail does. If I think windmills are nice to look at, what gives you or anyone else for that matter the right to tell me to go jump off a cliff, other than we live in America which at least people can say what they want. We do not have to agree on that part. I don't think it is that bad, you do...That is fine...My major concern is that do these things play a significant enough rule in helping out the environment?...It appears, thus far, that they do not. Just because some people think that a mountain is more important than the air we breath is fine...and I do understand that the ecosystem contributes to our environment, No proof has been given to me anyhow that windmills with make a big enough difference...So the point is moot. We are almost on the same page and I think at least that is a compromise. I am the only one that has budged on this topic, and that is because of some good information being given and of information I have found. This board has set a good foundation...It's just the attitudes I am unaccustomed to...Never had to deal with people that had such a "passion" for a topic. I have not asked, but I do wonder about how much other Council members have delved into the topic. I believe we have all been to the Portage Wind Plant by now...That was presented well, which I am sure you would not care to hear about. But the fact still remains, when it is all said and done, The Wind Mills have to do something a bit more I guess to win my vote. Still more time needs to be invested until the time of the vote and I will still invest my time into this subject. Every vote counts in this type of an issue.