Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

[My2Cents]

If I thought it was not so bad, that is because I don't put as much thought into the ecosystem as apparently Bucktail does. If I think windmills are nice to look at, what gives you or anyone else for that matter the right to tell me to go jump off a cliff, :huh: I don't think anybody said that other than we live in America which at least people can say what they want. We do not have to agree on that part. I don't think it is that bad, you do... :huh:
What ?? That isn't so, careful with the accusations do these things play a significant enough rule in helping out the environment?...It appears, thus far, that they do not. Just because some people think that a mountain is more important than the air we breath is fine... :huh: I don't think anybody said that either and I do understand that the ecosystem contributes to our environment, No proof has been given to me anyhow that windmills with make a big enough difference...So the point is moot. We are almost on the same page and I think at least that is a compromise. I am the only one that has budged on this topic, and that is because of some good information being given and of information I have found. This board has set a good foundation...It's just the attitudes I am unaccustomed to...Never had to deal with people that had such a "passion" for a topic. I have not asked, but I do wonder about how much other Council members have delved into the topic. I believe we have all been to the Portage Wind Plant by now...That was presented well, which I am sure you would not care to hear about. :huh: you're sure ?? What makes you say that ?? But the fact still remains, when it is all said and done, The Wind Mills have to do something a bit more I guess to win my vote. Still more time needs to be invested until the time of the vote and I will still invest my time into this subject. Every vote counts in this type of an issue.

I will not lower myself and indulge you with any arguement what-so-ever. I will say, however, there is so much more that I could say, but, I won't. You, in the position you are in, should not be making unfounded accusations towards the people on this board or any where else. Think about it, some of the "attitudes" you are talking about, you created by insinuating and/or accusing folks of something that is absolutely unfounded... you stir the pot by making these fly by night statements and this in turn angers some (most) and makes them want to come back with something. You also made a comment earlier... something about the people out here making comments towards our council... I may be wrong, I may have missed it,but, I haven't seen anyone on here make any condescending comments towards our council. I know , for a fact, we have good people on our council and a Mayor to be very proud of !!! Please, speak for yourself, not for others. Thanks.

[Bill Latchford]

For one thing I was not asking for an argument with my last statement...I was stating my opinion and my thoughts on how I think this board has allowed me to grow from my earlier position on the wind mills. I certainly was meaning to be more complimentary than anything. look you know as well as I do that the moment I said I was for the wind mills, at the beginning, it was like opening up Pandora’s box. How was I to know I would have to handle a bunch of people tossing all this information at me and them expect me to answer them? I only knew that wind mills were a renewable option that should be looked into, and there was a developer that was interested in a wind plant project on Borough land. Now of course at the beginning it looked like a win win situation. Dig a little deeper though by listening to some of you on this board and researching for myself...and there you go a more informed me

Now as for this....other than we live in America which at least people can say what they want. We do not have to agree on that part. I don't think it is that bad, you do...
What ?? That isn't so, careful with the accusations....Please explain what you are insinuating here?

I really have no clue on what you think I said there. I thought I was saying, in basic terms, that in America we are allowed to have our own thoughts and free speech allows us to express those. If you took something else from it please let me know, because there is no way I would infringe on someone's right to free speech, as people should also not infringe on my thoughts to what I think looks nice or not.

As for this statement....I believe we have all been to the Portage Wind Plant by now...That was presented well, which I am sure you would not care to hear about. you're sure ?? What makes you say that ??....You have made it abundantly clear that my thoughts about how I think Gamesa did on The Allegheny Ridge Wind Farm were and I quote..."You got to be out of your mind. Footprint not as bad?!?! You could see clearly see how big the multiple gouges that were carved into the forest that was created by Gamesa or whomever put these in. They are huge. And that's from the air. I'm sure being on ground level is 100 times worse. So I am certainly not getting into an argument over that....You say Potato I say Potato...You get the point. It is all in how it is perceived by the individual.

Now with that explained....I think the waters should be a bit calmer, I hope. I have taken most of the information to heart here, If I had not then why would I continue. I have not stopped looking for answers...and I would hope that all who are passionate about this topic keep examining and re-examining your stance. If I didn't re-examine mine, well where would I be? I will continue up until the time we vote on the topic. I most certainly can not take the word of everyone on the board without following it up with research...Most of what was said has been documented elsewhere by credible sources. I would not be doing my job to vote on something that I have no clue about without researching it first hand.

[Bill Latchford]

Remember, I really don't know some of you from anyone else....I know Stan Kotala to the point that I talked to him on the phone and respect his opinion...I know very few others...And well that is the reason some people get on these boards so they can make a statement and not have to back it up....There have been some that all they did was keep restating the stance that JVA clearly points out, which now I see is a good one.
So there is no way I can take anyone, who feels they would like to remain anonymous, opinion on the subject. But what I can do is research, and that I did, to make sure I am getting information that is reliable and credible. I will not base my vote on anything else other than credible facts. I made the mistake of jumping back on here to try and get a little bit more information, :banghead: and well if you have anything else to say, please place it in a PM...If you are unwilling to give me your name and address, don't expect a reply. My name and address are easily found. These things are to important and I take my position very seriously. I have lived in Tyrone all my life except for the time I served in this great nations Army. So yes I have a bit of an investment in this town so I will do what I feel is best for it. As all on Council has pledged to do. Thanks to all who have given me their valuable time and energy to make sure I am making an informed and as educated as possible decision.

[My2Cents]

OK Bill.... I must say, you did stick your neck out, you did try to see both sides of this issue. You did take a chance on exposing yourself and your feelings to the public.
Maybe I mis interpretated the "....we can say what we want...we do not have to agree... I don't think it's bad..... "you do".... This sounded to me like you were saying I think it's bad to speak out. I may have read that too fast. Sorry.
The Portage Wind Plant... presentation went well... I wouldn't be interested. ... that's an example of assuming something and speaking for me. Sure, I would be interested, I too am listening to "both" sides of this story. I along with others would like to know what their presentation was... who knows, it may have changed some minds. It's good to hear both sides of the story.
Lastly ..."You got to be out of your mind... footprint not as bad" statement. Bill check it out.... I didn't say that, someone else said that. I mentioned something like.... (not exact words) that the turbines were not moving and notice how much of the ridge was destroyed by putting in the roads. something like that.
In closing, all I can say is it's good that someone out there started this ball rolling concerning the pros and cons of these wind mills go. Otherwise, I feel, a vote would have been taken blindly. At least now, with all that has been presented, anything happening on down the line would at least have had some thought before hand. I certainly have learned a lot throughout the whole fiasco. The more that was posted, the more I dug for facts... including the "fan" theory :slap: .
Personally, these wind mills will not effect me in any way. I will not see them, I will not hear them, unless, I take a drive up over Janesville Pike. It's just the principal of the thing. I'm not going to repeat that "broken record" that you graciously have put a lable on... I don't mean to imply anything with that remark either.... I'm just saying... Overtime we will see the mistake that was made should these things be allowed in our area.
I have nothing else to say Bill... no need for a PM... I love my hometown, it is really a beautiful place that most take for granted. I only hope we do not see wind mills and all that goes with them up on our ridges.
Take care.

[150thBucktailCo.I]

...I guess if there is something the people really want to make sure goes their way they need to speak up. I just believe if they showed up to a Council meeting once in a while that more would get accomplished for the people. Maybe that is the way it is for small municipalities...No one shows up until it is something they deem effects them personally.

I totally agree with that statement. I have a couple theories as to why that is:

A) People are relatively busy with their own lives and family. Whether it be struggling to make ends meet in this economic-statistically depressed area within the state of PA (one of the lowest economic stats in the state), or wanting to try to spend time with their families and trying to be involved in in their kids' lives. I feel that morethanlikely it is a combination of both.

B) The older generations (current senior citizens) have been "trained" to allow the old-style of corrupted politics to continue without getting involved. To not worry about what is being done by governing bodies because even if they disagreed with it, they won't be able to change the outcome. The "government knows best" influence. It was like how my grandparents spoke about working for the mill or railroad. "Yeah, it was a crappy job, and people weren't always treated kindly or fairly, but it was a job which one needed in order to survive, so you ate the sh*t and continued on and ignored the negative issues. And at least a guy had a job and usually a job for life. Therefore, we owed it to those entities to let them do what they wanted. They had the power." It's all they knew. Shut up and work and like it. By God.. LOVE IT. And they passed this kind of thinking down to their kids. Well, in case you hadn't noticed, that kind of thought isn't flying too well with the 30's and younger generations. Call it the Reform Generation, and it's causing all kinds of upheaval within politics and governments. The old style of politics is on the way out.

I want to always care about the people in my town and always want to do my best to serve their needs, Not the needs of lets say all of Blair County or the State of Pennsylvania. We need help on the bottom rungs of the ladder too.

So, I guess you are implying that if Snyder Township, or Antis Township, or Warriors Mark Township, or any other municipality decided to do something that would benefit their citizens/constituents but negatively affected the lives of the population of Tyrone, you'd be very understanding of that and would have no qualms about it. OK.

[150thBucktailCo.I]

[.My thought on what Bucktail was saying to me was the total disrespect for my opinion. If I thought it was not so bad, that is because I don't put as much thought into the ecosystem as apparently Bucktail does.

If you thought that my statements were disrespectful (which in no way was it meant to be) then you are completely mis-interpreting things, and in my opinion, possibly just looking for a reason to be or act insulted.

And I do put much thought into the ecosystem... because we are only a small part of it. And mainly because we (mankind) do a pretty good job at destroying it, and it's pretty easy to do... but mankind sure does b*tch and moan about how much it costs when it has to be put back together and repaired.

Much like the Chesapeake Bay issues that have been created over decades-long abuses by mankind. And now look what is happening... we are all going to have to pay money out of our pocket to fix the damage that people and corporations before us (and some currently) have done to that watershed. The ecosystem can't protect itself. But we can protect it.

Some considerate forethought now may protect us all from more negative hindsight in the future.

[SMOKEJUMPER]

To my2cents
in my opinion I have done my homework. I have looked into the sites that were listed. at any given point they all seem to be linked to the save the wild life and forest groups. these groups are a bunch of hippocrits. save the trees, but thay go out and buy the same things they are telling us not to have or buy.I also saw this past sunday on the history channel a program called a greener word. they talk about the wind mills that have been in holland for centries. the have no problems with them. and off the cost of finland they are playing with trubines that are powered by the current of the rivers and the ocean. not to mention large solar panels in the ocean. when some corperation wants to put in the water turbines in are rivers are we going to stop them, all to save the fish?. to me it sounds those people that are against them are mad that they were not able to act on it and get paid for it. if the wind turbins are such an eye sore why not paint them camouflage pattern. that works for the military. as for the wild life they will get use to the sounds. those windmills that are not up to full operating compasity may be do to the antique and out dated power grid, which may bee unable to handle the added extra power load, did anyone think of that?

[SoccerMom]

These wind turbines produce very little electricity, especially in our area, so why bother? France has been running on nuclear power for quite some time now, and they don't seem to have any problems with it:

"France has 59 nuclear reactors operated by Electricité de France (EdF) with total capacity of over 63 GWe, supplying over 430 billion kWh per year of electricity, 78% of the total generated there. In 2005 French electricity generation was 549 billion kWh net and consumption 482 billion kWh - 7700 kWh per person. Over the last decade France has exported 60-70 billion kWh net each year and EdF expects exports to continue at 65-70 TWh/yr.

The present situation is due to the French government deciding in 1974, just after the first oil shock, to expand rapidly the country's nuclear power capacity. This decision was taken in the context of France having substantial heavy engineering expertise but few indigenous energy resources. Nuclear energy, with the fuel cost being a relatively small part of the overall cost, made good sense in minimising imports and achieving greater energy security.

As a result of the 1974 decision, France now claims a substantial level of energy independence and almost the lowest cost electricity in Europe. It also has an extremely low level of CO2 emissions per capita from electricity generation, since over 90% of its electricity is nuclear or hydro."

Read entire paper here: http://www.uic.com.au/nip28.htm

[150thBucktailCo.I]

SMOKEJUMPER...

Here's the catch about some of your post.

A) The winds along large waterways, beaches, and shorelines tend to blow more constantly than here in the mountains of PA. Mainly because they have no mountains interrupting the flow of air. Go to Erie or Buffalo, NY sometime and experience the breeze that blows off the lake. It is almost constant, steady breeze. Having grown up in that area, I'm quite familiar with it. As I've stated before, in our area, the winds only tend to blow hard when a weather front is coming through, or in the afternoons when the air has started to warm up and is rising. And this sure isn't a steady wind. And a breeze isn't going to cut it.

B) Those windmills in Holland, I believe, are mainly for water extraction. I.E. a pumping system. And again, it's all about the topography. That area of Europe is a predominately flat, coastal area which allows the wind to blow constant and steady. Definitely not a mountainous area such as the Alleghenies.

C) Please re-read my last post prior to this in regards to the ecosystems and what it costs to repair them. Should this eco-system be damaged and then discovered that in 10, 20, or 30 years from now it needs to be repaired because of some issues that might be discovered, are you or your children going to be willing to pay more money out of your pocket to repair that damage, much like the Chesapeake Bay repairs that we will be having water and sewer rates increased for?

D) You mentioned an outdated and antiquated power grid. If the current system is unable to carry an additional load that the windmills might be generating, then why put more windmills up? Shouldn't the system be updated and modified BEFORE installing an alternate power source such as a windmill? To me, that would be the smart way to go, if that is the problem. To me that would be like paving a new road before creating a roadbed.

Hopefully, you don't have the attitude that because conservation groups are attempting to slow down or halt potential damage to the eco-system that we all are a part of and use every day, they are a bunch of tree-hugging hippies. I don't believe stereotyping these groups, that include scientists, into one category is a good thing. And, most definitely, some groups are hypocrits and alarmists... Al Gore is a GREAT example of just that. But again, don't categorize every group into one segment. Not all are alike.

I also hope you understand that Gamesa's first priority is to make money for their business. And they already receive all kinds of state tax payer money and funding (collected from me, you, and every other Pennsylvanian) paid to them by Ed Rendell and the legislature to put these things up. They aren't doing it all with their own money. And I would expect an energy tax increase proposal in the upcoming years before Rendell is out of office to continue to pay Gamesa to put these things up. Is that where you want your tax money to go? To some help some Spanish business increase their profit margin?

[Conan_the_Hoagarian]

And by the way.. for those who don't know...

***Former Sen. Bob Jubelirer chief-of-staff, Mike Long, is now lobbying for the "environmental" group Penn Future

How about that coincidence!?!?!

...Big Money (Gamesa) equipped with Political Connections with Political Favors (Rendell and Jubelirer)...

Here's an exerpt from an article about a Somerset County community fighting Gamesa over their plans to build a wind farm on Schaffer Mountain. It quotes a Gamesa Rep talking about Jubelirer. Included below is a link to the entire article.

Link to the full article

Michael Peck, a senior communications consultant for Gamesa, said the company is counting on the "political center" to save the Shaffer Mountain project.

Gamesa has hired former Republican state Sen. Robert Jubelirer of Altoona to be its lobbyist in Harrisburg.

"He's been most helpful to us. He's a wise person, he sees both sides of the issue, and he's a temperate, seasoned professional," Peck said. :drink:

Ceisler Jubelirer, a public relations firm in which Jubelirer's son Jeff is a principal, is also doing work for Gamesa. Kurt Knaus, former DEP press secretary, handles the Gamesa account.

Peck heaped praise on McGinty as "talented and energetic," and said Rendell "is committed to economic development. We felt Pennsylvania was the right place."

He reserved his greatest scorn for the "well-funded" opponents of the Shaffer Mountain project who, he suggested, are intimidating residents into putting anti-Gamesa signs in their yards.

"I get emotional because of the tactics they've used," he said. "We've never confronted before such an unrelenting barrage of misinformation and untruths and distortions."

Buchen laughed away Peck's intimidation charge. "That's unbelievable," he said. "People are calling me and asking for the signs and I don't have them."

He said Gamesa's connection with state government is intimidating people.

[My2Cents]

Very interesting ... Thanks Conan !! I read the entire link. This is a perfect example of how they came into an area and did their thing before the general public realized all that was fully involved in letting those things into their area. The LEASE was signed and that's all Gamesa needed. Once they have a signed lease, there is no stopping them. Folks can try... they can put things on hold... more meeting begin...then red tape and paperwork begins...then another meeting.... and another meeting... In the end, GAMESA will win anyway.... all because the lease was signed.
The best way for Tyrone to avoid any of these problems will be for them not to sign any lease under any circumstances. Just flat out tell them no deal !!! No compromising !!! Also, no putting things on hold 'til the next meeting type stuff.... just tell them flat out NO. They should be checking out the shores of lake Erie if they want to put these things up... the wind blows more often up there than on our ridge tops.
With all the money and time that is being wasted on the turbines that have already been set up in these communities... all that money could have been put into good use throughout the state, including our town, for upgrading all the sewage plants that needs upgraded throughout the state and do what ever has to be done to help clean up the Bay. Not vise versa put up a turbine then take the money we give you and pay for the upgrade yourself.
Now, what we are starting to hear is the "excuse" or shall I say "ploy" that if we allow those turbines to go in on our ridge tops, it will be a good thing because we will be able to get the money to pay for our towns sewage upgrade. People fall for ploys like that. Just like some are going to think this is going to lower their electricity bill.

[zapatista]

Here's an exerpt from an article about a Somerset County community fighting Gamesa over their plans to build a wind farm on Schaffer Mountain. It quotes a Gamesa Rep talking about Jubelirer. Included below is a link to the entire article.

Link to the full article

This article made my blood boil.

It's galling the way Gamesa, DEP and the Rendell administration think that they can just shove these things down peoples throats.

These quotes from the article spoke volumes:

"DEP acknowledges that it summoned police that night to force removal of anti-wind farm exhibits and signs from the building where the hearing was being held. Gamesa's exhibits were not touched."

""If there is any question if DEP is not doing its job because it is Gamesa, the answer is no," said Michael Smith, DEP director of communications."

Right.

... and I'm sure that Gamesa won't forget Smith and McGinty's "impartiality".

Sounds like they have lucrative careers as lobbyists awaiting them when they retire.

I noticed that former DEP press secretary Kurt Knaus already handles the Gamesa account - but I'm sure there's room for more.

I also thought it was interesting that Gamesa bussed 40 steelworkers to the meeting.

"About 40 yellow-shirted United Steelworkers union members who work at the Gamesa blade factory in Ebensburg were among the few supporters. They came on a bus and hooted back at wind farm opponents."

I guess Gamesa doesn't discriminate between local support and "voluntary" support from their subcontractors - they'll take whatever they can get.

Playing fair doesn't really matter when millions of dollars are at stake.

We're fortunate that our situation is different than Somersets.

Our borough owns the land in question - not a private company.

We still have a chance to influence this decision in our favor. I sure as h*ll hope we do.

[150thBucktailCo.I]

I also thought it was interesting that Gamesa bussed 40 steelworkers to the meeting.

"About 40 yellow-shirted United Steelworkers union members who work at the Gamesa blade factory in Ebensburg were among the few supporters. They came on a bus and hooted back at wind farm opponents."

.

This is a common tactic when an outside corporation is up against heavy local opposition. When I was involved in the proposed Gettysburg Casino fight, former Norfolk-Southern CEO David LeVan (who wanted to build the casino) brought in bus loads of union steel workers and others to attempt to intimidate the No Casino Gettysburg group and their supporters at all the major Gaming Commission meetings. And LeVan and his associates offered incentives (MONEY) to the Gettysburg Boro Council, the nearby townships, and even the county if they would all vote in favor of the project. And when Gettysburg Council couldn't reach a majority decision or had questions about the project, the Pro-Casino group upped the ante' and offered additional incentives (MONEY). All the Boro and Townships had to do was give LeVan the public approval and acceptance of the project by way of voting for the project, advertise their public support for the project, and allow him the permits.

I've also have read about the Union tactic being used in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh quite often against neighborhood groups who are opposing certain commercial and business developments.

[150thBucktailCo.I]

WOW.. great article, Conan. I'm right there with you in regards to blood boiling, Zapatista.

There you go, Greg Bock. Follow up on that article and put it in the Altoona Mirror. Put those experiences, issues, and facts out there for the people of Blair/Huntingdon/Bedford/Cambria counties to read about Gamesa, the DEP, and their lobbyists.

Honestly, I'd be surprised even if you did create an article with all that d@mning information that it would receive the go ahead from those in charge at the Mirror. And even if it did, I'd be very surprised to see it be front page on a peak readership day. But I hope you at least try, and if you would make sure include to every little piece of information even if it weighs heavier against one side or the other. I'm sure it would be a lot of work.. but it sure would be nice to see.

It's another perfect example of the continued political incest, nepotism, favoritism, and related linkage that the PA government, their supporters/contributors, and their departments have.

There are no 2 major political parties in PA when it comes down to it. There is only 1... and it's called THE ESTABLISHMENT.

And The Establishment of both major parties continue to work together to rule PA the way that they see fit and move to make sure that it benefits themselves and their supporters.

Not what benefits Pennsylvanians. And the statistical comparisons with the other states prove just that.

If you play the political game in PA, the rich get richer, while the poor (and middle class) get poorer. They have to get the money from somewhere. And that place is YOU and ME.

One other note: Jubelirer was embarrassed once already in Blair county. I would imagine that he'll try like crazy to make d@mn sure it won't happen again with Gamesa. Look for possible added incentives offered to the Boro if the vote is against Gamesa. Either that, or they will go after Snyder Twp. and/or private land owners.

[Conan_the_Hoagarian]

I also thought it was interesting that Gamesa bussed 40 steelworkers to the meeting.

"About 40 yellow-shirted United Steelworkers union members who work at the Gamesa blade factory in Ebensburg were among the few supporters. They came on a bus and hooted back at wind farm opponents."

.

I'm surprised they wore yellow shirts.

I thought the standard uniform called for "Brown Shirts".