Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

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sandstone
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by sandstone »

My2Cents wrote:Maybe it's me, but, I couldn't bring up the pennlive.com website submitted above.
Sorry. Looks like they're no longer on the PennLive website. They are archived here however:

http://www.windaction.org/opinions/13195

http://www.windaction.org/opinions/11686

http://www.windaction.org/opinions/12958
sandstone
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by sandstone »

jayestewart wrote:Hmm...that's a considerable chunk of change. That might be a determining factor unless that kind of funding could be generated elsewhere. It is a shame but the reality is that it takes money to run a city government. How many signatures are there on the petititon thus far?
I've got nothing to do with the petition because I'm not a borough resident (I live 15 miles from Tyrone), but the last I heard it had a few hundred signatures. Salaman's coordinating the drive.
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by sandstone »

Well, we've finally made the Big Time: we're on the Wind Action website!:

http://www.windaction.org:80/documents/13337
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by jayestewart »

That is surely a very pointed recommendation. I don't have any questions....lol
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by Something to say »

Sandstone said, Wind needs to be part of that solution. But a critical question is this: How far do you go in trying to save the planet by destroying it? "


AMEN! I couldn't agree more with that statement, it speaks volumes. I said before...this situation seems to me...as if we'd be robbing Peter to pay Paul by putting turbines on Ice Mountain.

There's been so much hashed and rehashed on this board. I don't believe anyone doubts that measures need to be taken to become a greener planet. Bill's analogy of the Salvation Army bucket and every dime... makes sense, but, putting turbines on Ice Mountain in order to change the world...or our little corner of it... is like putting a band aid on a huge gushing wound. Spreading turbines across America isn't going to change the pollution issue dramatically... we still need to burn fossil fuels along with the turbines. I believe that's why there has been so much talk about clean coal...gasification...whatever.

If people want to make a green difference we need to start doing so in our every day lives. Refusing plastic bags at the markets is a good place to start. Cloth diapers. Car-pooling, seriously. Going back to glass bottles that can be reused.... Closing all stores on Sundays..etc. etc.etc....sacrificing... getting back to the basics. But the problem with all of this... is... convenience and money... nobody wants to do without.
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by Something to say »

LOL...oops... I digress... LOL
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by jayestewart »

So anyone know what we call this new monster in FL that has cropped up near the nuclear plant?

http://photobucket.com/mediadetail/?med ... geOffset=2
sandstone
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by sandstone »

The need to ruin the Ice Mountain County Natural Heritage Area can be eliminated by adding 20 MegaWatts of capacity to any one of Pennsylvania's 5 nuclear power plants (each of which already has 2,000+ MegaWatts of capacity). The electricity would be of higher value because it would be available 24/7 365 days a year independent of wind speed. Air pollution would be reduced by the same amount as with a windplant.
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by My2Cents »

sandstone wrote:Well, we've finally made the Big Time: we're on the Wind Action website!:

http://www.windaction.org:80/documents/13337
Please don't let this site that sandstone submitted get lost in the shuffle. It is absolutely fantastic !!! Please take time to go thru it by clicking onto the different areas of it after reading the initial post. There is so much valuable information here. Including the comments and blog section. One person simply stated... "What have I done."
One thing (of MANY) that caught my eye and will probably leave a lasting impression on me.... after you are done reading the main topics in the post, go back to the initial first page and in the left hand column, click on Pictures "by topic." At the bottom of the page, look at the 3rd picture up from the bottom... "windplant in the country" click on the picture to enlarge the picture.... whew, what a shame... so very, very, very sad !!! There are many other pics that are just as bad, but this one really stood out. Look off to the left of that picture to the one about "proposed wind farms in New York" the whole state is being covered by these things. That's what is going to happen in Pennsylvania if some one doesn't stop this.
I do hope you all find time to go thru this whole site... it's great !!! Thanks, once again sandstone !!!
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by sandstone »

From the National Center for Policy Analysis: http://www.ncpa.org/studies/renew/renew2e.html
Robert L. Bradley, Jr.

A distinct air emission problem of wind capacity is created when a new project is built where there is surplus electric generating capacity. Since large wind farms require thousands of tons of materials, virtually all of the air emissions associated with the electricity used to make these materials (such as cement or steel) must be counted against the air emissions "saved" once the farm comes on line and displaces fossil fuel-generated output. For example, a recently announced Zond wind farm of 40 to 45 effective megawatts is composed of 150 wind turbines weighing 35 tons each or just over 10 million pounds. The entire electricity requirement for these materials (cement, steel, fiberglass, etc.) must be estimated before assigning an air emission factor. To calculate a net emission savings, that factor must be subtracted from the air emission reduction once the wind project comes online.

If there is no surplus capacity, on the other hand, the calculation would include only the incremental emissions associated with constructing a wind facility instead of a fossil-fuel facility. While not calculated here, the air emissions associated with the construction of wind capacity that is either surplus to the needs of the area or that displaces a much smaller gas plant equivalent is substantial enough to create an environmental externality from the viewpoint of its proponents. In fact, air emission values for carbon dioxide, sulphur dioxide and nitrogen oxides have been assigned to wind in an externality analysis done in 1995 by the European Commission.

Wind power's land disturbance, noise and unsightly turbines present environmental drawbacks also, at least from the perspective of some, if not many, mainstream environmentalists. Yet at least one well known environmental group has a double standard when considering wind power versus other energy options. In testimony before the California Public Utilities Commission, Ralph Cavanagh of the Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) argued against opening up the electric industry to competition and customer choice because of the development of significant new transmission and distribution lines to link buyers and sellers of power. In addition to the visual blight of additional power lines on the landscape, these corridors can displace threatened or endangered species.

Christopher Flavin of Worldwatch Institute applies the same rigorous standard to gas development that "at least for a time, mars the landscape with drilling rigs, pipelines, and other equipment."

Yet Altamont Pass's 7,000 turbines (located near Cavanagh's San Francisco office) have a record of sizable avian mortality, large land-use requirements, disturbing noise and "visual blight." The irony of visual blight was not lost on environmental philosopher Roderick Nash who, referring to the Santa Barbara environmentalists, asked, "If offshore rigs offend, can a much greater number of windmills be any better?"

Wind (like solar) "mars" the landscape all the time, not "at least for a time." Environmentalists have raised concerns over erosion from service roads cut into slopes (an important problem for California where mud slides are a hazard), "fugitive dust" from unpaved roads, flashing lights and red-and-white paint required by the FAA on tall towers, rushed construction for tax considerations, fencing requirements, oil leakage and abandoned turbines. The "NIMBY" (not in my back yard) problem of wind turbines may seem a trivial nuisance for urbanites, but for rural inhabitants, who "choose to live in such locations . . . primarily because the land is unsuitable for other urban uses," there is an environmental cost.

The ancillary environmental problems are not minor, even to wind power's leading proponents. Paul Gipe, author of Wind Power for Home & Business and Wind Energy Comes of Age, in an October 15, 1996, letter to the chairman of the California Energy Commission, called for a moratorium on new wind subsidies until the problems of previous construction were addressed. Stated Gipe:

I am a longtime advocate of wind energy in California and my record in support of the industry is well known. I have chronicled the growth of California's wind industry for more than 12 years. It therefore pains me greatly to urge the Commission to ... recommend to the legislature that no funds from the [California Competition Transition Charge] be distributed to existing or future wind projects in the state. Funds that were destined for this purpose should instead be deposited in a wind energy cleanup fund to be administered by the Commission. Money from this fund could then be used to control erosion from plants in California, to remove abandoned and nonoperating wind turbines littering our scenic hillsides, and to mitigate other environmental impacts from the state's wind industry.

As Gipe has reminded his audience elsewhere, "the people who build wind farms are not environmentalists." The Union of Concerned Scientists has also been quick to point out its "environmental concerns" with wind power, stemming from "not only avian issues, but also . . .the effects of road construction, tree felling and visual impacts."

Another problem of wind farms appears to be fire and smoke. One article pointed that "Wind farm operators are feeling the heat from the state Department of Forestry and Fire Protection over blazes in Altamont Pass. Causes range from electrical shorts to exposed wires to flaming birds."

Wind farms also fail the land-use test compared to fossil fuel. A wind farm requires as much as 85 times more space than a conventional gas-fired power plant. Paul Gipe estimates the range to be between 10 and 80 acres per megawatt -- from 30 to over 200 times more space than gas plants. Wide spacing (a 50 megawatt farm can require anywhere between two and 25 square miles) is necessary to avoid wake effects between towers. The world's 5,000-megawatt (nameplate) wind power capacity as of 1995 consisted of 25,000 turbines -- little bang for the visual blight buck.

The argument that the actual space used by wind towers is much smaller than the total acreage of wind farms ("as little as 1 percent of the land is actually occupied") is the "footprint" argument that eco-energy planners refuse to consider for petroleum extraction in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) in Alaska. Consistency aside, "the visual impact of wind turbines on the countryside is one of their most contentious issues."

Another environmental consideration with wind projects is created when they are combined with gas turbine backup to lower the weighted average cost of power and to achieve reliability as a firm source of electricity. Gas/wind hybrids (or gas/solar hybrids) blur the renewable-fossil fuel distinction and avoids the questions: why not have a gas-only project, and is the project really needed at all given existing overcapacity?
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by Something to say »

3 DAYS TIL THE ANNOUNCEMENT!!! Keeping my :eek: here for the details!!!!!!!

Growing :fogey: waiting!!!!!
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by Something to say »

Give us a clue Rick !!!! :roll:
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by My2Cents »

Something to say wrote:Give us a clue Rick !!!! :roll:
Sorry for getting off the main subject... especially here of all places, but, I'm guessing it's gonna' be a "spell checker." :mrgreen:
By the way... has anyone mentioned where they plan to build the substation that goes along with this wind farm ?? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere. That too, will cause a terrible destruction to where ever that area is. Hummm, maybe leaving this out of the picture was done on purpose too.
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by Ice Man »

My2Cents wrote:
Something to say wrote:Give us a clue Rick !!!! :roll:
Sorry for getting off the main subject... especially here of all places, but, I'm guessing it's gonna' be a "spell checker." :mrgreen:
By the way... has anyone mentioned where they plan to build the substation that goes along with this wind farm ?? I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere. That too, will cause a terrible destruction to where ever that area is. Hummm, maybe leaving this out of the picture was done on purpose too.
There may have to be 2 substations, since it's unclear how Vanscoyoc Run, separating the Snyder Twp turbines from the Taylor Twp turbines, will be crossed. Vanscoyoc Run hollow is 1/2 mile wide and steep. At Allegheny Ridge, a substation covers about 5 acres.
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Re: Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

Post by My2Cents »

Thanks Ice Man. Amazing, this has not even been mentioned, and or, included with the other things in this project... unless, I missed it somewhere along the way.
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