Windmills on Ice Mountain - Gamesa Wind Turbines

[sammie]

Thank you Ice Man.

So as of now, Snyder Township has no regulations.

Even though the Snyder Twp Planning Commission no longer exists, are the Supervisors working on the ordinance?

[Ice Man]

Thank you Ice Man.

So as of now, Snyder Township has no regulations.

Even though the Snyder Twp Planning Commission no longer exists, are the Supervisors working on the ordinance?

Yes. They've hired a new solicitor to prepare an ordinance. A public hearing to review is to be scheduled soon.

[sandstone]

Ice man...That was a very informative article. However, I still have a hard time believing that wind farms would have a major impact on wildlife. Minor yes, major, I can't see it.

In a statement issued more than a year ago, the 250+ scientists and conservation professionals who make up the Pennsylvania Biological Survey said that the impact of industrial windplants on wildlife is "severe." "Severe" is the word that they used. To me, "severe" means more than "minor."

Here's the exact quote from the Pennsylvania Biological Survey: "After reviewing the growing evidence from locations in Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and Tennessee, the Mammal Technical Committee of the Pennsylvania Biological Survey strongly concurs with the position of Bat Conservation International that the impact of wind power facilities on wildlife is severe."

If you need more information, please contact Dr. Tim Maret tjmare@ship.edu or Dr. Michael Gannon mrg5@psu.edu, both of whom are members of Pennsylvania Biological Survey.

If you disagree with these 250+ scientists and conservation professionals, then I, like the Ice Man, would like to see your evidence.

[Ice Man]

By the way, today (Monday, November 5, 2007) on the back page of the "A" section of the Altoona Mirror (page A8) is an article about the Snyder Township Board of Supervisors race.

Says here that:

"Another issue on which (Republican Robert) Nelson and (Incumbent Supervisor Bernie) Sherwood disagree is allowing industrial windmills. Although Tyrone Borough owns the land where Gamesa wants to erect more than a dozen turbines, the township still can reap financial benefit through its unfinished wind turbine ordinance. Nelson opposes building turbines, while Sherwin supports the idea and the added revenue it would bring."

Robert Nelson won and is the new Snyder Township supervisor.

[Bill Latchford]

Ardean, you have made several references to my posts. I am truly sorry if I have offended you or your brother, but I'm not sorry to be taking the stand that I have taken. Sometimes desperate times call for desperate measures. I find it very unfair that council is taking the vote into consideration and making their decision based on that vote alone. Its as if the petition with 1400 signatures is now null and void and makes no difference. People gave up their time and energy getting those signatures and that petition should be taken into just as much account as the public vote during the election process. ( When is the last time you saw folks in this town so involved in an issue? ) Look how many views this thread has.

To completely ignore 1400 residents of 16686 is sad. If you do the math... there were 400 more signatures on those petitions than the entire 1000 votes gathered at the primaries.

Bill...and I do not mean this to sound harsh... has questioned people's opinions and the facts that have been presented.... repeatedly. Its been almost like he has baited folks to give up their views just to tear them down. I applaud him in his quest to gain knowledge and admire him for putting himself out there...but often it has felt, to me at least, like for every step taken forward, he has been there to push one step back. He has constantly questioned people's knowledge or wondered about their expertise...etc...etc...etc.

My frustration is in that the council is voted in by the people of the town... and the people of the town have reached out to this council about an issue that is very dear to their hearts, and council REFUSES to listen, and instead, will do as they please.

The fact is --1400 people signed a petition, and 400 voted no during the election process, ... even if those 400 also SIGNED the petition ... that still leaves 1000 other people that oppose this wind farm development on ICE MOUNTAIN. That's a tad bit more than the 600 who voted yes. Do the math.

Bill Latchford, I apologise if I have offended you during this thread. That has not been my intention.

"SomeThingToSay" - You said "My frustration is in that the council is voted in by the people of the town... and the people of the town have reached out to this council about an issue that is very dear to their hearts, and council REFUSES to listen, and instead, will do as they please."

Those are the same voters that just voted 601- Yes to 493 - No. We are looking at those people who voted us into office. Voting is the voice of the people...I have always said that if someone does not vote then their voice is never truly heard.

The only reason I questioned anything is because my knowledge on the subject was weak. I needed these things to be straighter in my head. When I only have a bunch of emotional feelings being thrown at me saying that I need to wake up and see what these monstrosities are doing to the environment, I only see emotions and not facts. I have looked at the facts and I see them also coming from people that are more in touch with nature and have deeper conviction in the same. But when I pose rebuttal information, like PJM telling me that when a wind plant is online they have to curtail a more expensive energy source, I am told I am wrong. I have never said anyone here is wrong. I just said I think people are to emotional. You pull emotional out of the equation you have some pretty good facts. I just don't do well when no one and I mean no one on this board cares to listen to the facts that I had found from not so easy work. I just guess that if I touched one person here with some information that I thought was relevent and made sense that the emotions could subside. That is certainly not the case. So that to me is this board not caring about anyone else’s thoughts that didn't line up with theirs. That is to much to have to work with.
Anyhow, when I am asked questions about a or the "Wind Farm" I feel I answer their questions in a more unbiased way. I tell them there will be bird and bat mortality, I tell them there is no proof either way that the water supply will be damaged, I tell them those things are noisy and I pity the people at Allegheny that have to put up with those 6 Turbines that are not sited correctly. I do feel that if that scenario was looked at better the developer should have realized that those 6 Turbines were going to be an issue. I have been all over that Wind Farm and that is the worst place (The valley where the Stulls live). I tell people that we will not benefit directly from the Electricity produced at the proposed wind farm, but, and this is fact, you cannot say that Tyrone will not use any of that electricity. PJM told me that all the electricity goes into the Grid and where it goes from there is not known. It goes to where it is needed. If someone can throw some sort of meter on the line and tell me exactly where that electron came from, then by all means lets see it, I bet you could make a mint. I tell people that the Borough stands to have an income of around $150K per year from the lease of the property on the watershed for the proposed Wind Farm. I tell them that if it goes through I would like to get public input as to where they would like to see monies used in OUR community. Do I believe animals will get used to the Wind Farm? Most certainly, Do I believe it will cause an avoidance issue? Sure I do. If something does not like something else it avoids it. Do I believe the plant will have bird and bat mortality rates? Sure do, but cannot accept that it is in the numbers of thousands per year. That does not mean I don’t believe that, it just seems so hard to understand these creatures are that committed to flying straight into these things. Am I going to stress for monitoring of these things if they are built? I sure am. With these things being virtually a new thing to the East, it is imperative that they are monitored constantly. If you only have a couple of Farms running and there is not adequate post monitoring then how can we honestly know how bad it is? Enough on that topic, it is depressing.
I am not sure why people on this board were so against the survey. Why can't those who are intimidated by the opposition have their say? They are just not as vocal about it. I feel, and this is only me, that you have to keep this thing fair. It is so inconsiderate to just say that the survey is not fair. You are right you had all those signatures on that petition, but only 500 - 600 possibly were citizens. Ok so if you somehow can decipher exactly that you maybe end out with a tie. But guess what, out of confirmed citizens of the Borough of Tyrone it ends out being the majority would rather see the Wind Farm go in. It is human nature to want to go against those who don't believe as we do. Just like most of you all to me...because I just can't get my grip on nature loving as you all do. That should not be a reason to treat each other so inconsiderately.
Oh I could go on and on with this rant and I am so sure you all would love to hear it, just as I love hearing you all go at it to me, but when it boils right down to it. I do think that, and please note I said "I", most people are silent about this topic, and I think that silent group, as the survey proves, may truly be the majority. If there were a way to have the whole town vote, I truly believe that the majority would go along with this project as the voter survey has shown us. This is nothing saying that the "Save Ice Mountain" cause is not worth it, it is just not as important to some as others. This is what our society is based upon. Just like on Council, we try to make as many people happy with our decisions as possible. You certainly cannot please everyone, I learned that after my first 3 years in service...Oh I tried to no avail to stay away from the old scratch my back and I will scratch your back thing, but if you wanted something done and you needed someone’s support you in turn had to support what they may have wanted at some other time. Democracy in action I guess. That was moving into another arena of politics...I am very sorry that you all feel so offended by those who voted against your cause, and I think "My2Cents" has a decent attitude throughout most of this, even though I think she somehow hold me personally responsible for something???? I don't know...I just know that I work very hard to please as many as I can; it just is not possible to please all.
Oh I should add I don't take anything on this thread personally, As a Council member, for as long as I have been one, I have gained a thicker skin, as "Blain" says we should in public office. The views we all share are just not compatible and they never will be. All we can do is make as many happy as possible.

[150thBucktailCo.I]

I am not sure why people on this board were so against the survey.

That's easy enough, Bill. Your survey was done in a half-@ssed manner. And one that could have been very well manipulated by the survey talliers. Was the survey conducted by a non-interested, third party with a secure method? Of course not.


Then the survey was promoted by entities such as the Boro and Gamesa to the media as being proof-positive that the citizens of Tyrone approve of these things. More skewing of the real story in order to gain more public approval or to disenchant those citizens who base their information of local events off of WTAJ, WJAC, Altoona Mirror, the CDT, and/or Tyrone Daily Herald.


And you, Boro Council, Gamesa, and I all know that there is no way to retract the skewed information publicized by the local media now because "the seed has been planted". Which is exactly what you were looking to do. :stick:

[My2Cents]

Why for goodness sakes !! I do not hold you "personally responsible" for anything. You're no different than anyone else out here doing what we feel is the right thing for the cause. What ever will be, will be. Keep the faith and let's hope the final decision will be what is best for all. Granted, someone will be disappointed, but, we/they tried.
Chill, :slap:, and have a nice day.
P.S. Please keep in mind, this board is very precious to us... we cannot afford to have it shut down because of a silly arguement.

[Bill Latchford]

The only thing "Proof-Positive" here "150th" is your hostilities. What is the difference between you all putting a negative spin on Wind Farms and Gamesa putting a positive spin on Wind Farms. All You have here is two opposing groups that are looking for public approval period. Did I leave anything out here? I think not.
It was just a survey for Pete sake...Because the vote did not turn out the way you wanted or expected is not a reason to hate the messengers. It was the public that voted...All registered voters had the same opportunity to come out and voice their opinion. They were already out and voting and they did not have to run to someone's house or have someone who was against the "Wind Farms" knock on their door or nab them as they were shopping.

You talk about, and I quote, "Was the survey conducted by a non-interested, third party with a secure method? Of course not."

Was your petition?...Everyone relaying your petition around was against the Wind Turbines, not a single one that I am aware of would consider saying, "There are many good things that could come out of the monies the Borough would receive from the lease of the land for a Wind Farm development.
The idea of the survey was to get the voting public's opinion and they gave it. Just because we did not come out swinging with "Wind Farms" are bad attitude does not mean that the survey was not done in a good manner. We did not talk to the people we let them vote and I even asked people not to voice their opinion to me until after they voted.

[Something to say]

Hellloooo. You cannot offer a petition to the public without a cause. Therefore the reasons for not wanting the wind farm had to be explained. Explanation was given and 1400 people signed it.

Yes Bill... you left something out. Gamesa has EVERYTHING to gain from this deal. The citizens against the windfarm aren't getting paid to deter the public from voting on the windfarm. That is the difference. People oppose the windfarm for whatever reason, none of it being they are going to become filthy rich. Gamesa has no concern for Tyrone or its citizens. Their only concern is to make money. They don't care about the effects that farm is going to have on Ice Mountain. They aren't even worrying about a greener planet....if they were...they would in no way, shape, or form take from a County Natural Heritage Area of Exceptional Significance .

Its like this......... lets use a car dealer for example. You go into a car lot and a salesman needs a sale. He'll tell you everytime that car was garaged, owned by an elderly man, maintained beyond belief. He doesn't care what happens once you drive it from the lot. HE SOLD IT. PERIOD. Now you and I both know.....or should know......that what comes out of his mouth could be drivel. He has no interest in you personally. He does not care if you are getting quality. He does not care that you can't afford to put a lot of money into repairs. What he cares about is his pay check at the end of the week. And that is fact. They are trained to SELL. PERIOD.

Our neighbors down the road have warned you that Gamesa does not care about the after effects of their turbines. They have not fixed the problems they promised they would look into. If they were a car dealership I would never purchase from them because they are not good at their word.

And the bottom line in this whole affair is this. Tyrone is a small town and the purse looks enormous. Everyone has been fed untruths believing that their light bills are going to decrease, that the town is going to become gloriously rich from the installation...etc...etc...etc.

You've bought the farm. Good on you. What do I really care anyway... I know they aren't coming in on my watershed. My side of the mountain will maintain its beauty and natural state.

[sandstone]

Hellloooo. You cannot offer a petition to the public without a cause. Therefore the reasons for not wanting the wind farm had to be explained. Explanation was given and 1400 people signed it.

Yes Bill... you left something out. Gamesa has EVERYTHING to gain from this deal. The citizens against the windfarm aren't getting paid to deter the public from voting on the windfarm. That is the difference. People oppose the windfarm for whatever reason, none of it being they are going to become filthy rich. Gamesa has no concern for Tyrone or its citizens. Their only concern is to make money. They don't care about the effects that farm is going to have on Ice Mountain. They aren't even worrying about a greener planet....if they were...they would in no way, shape, or form take from a County Natural Heritage Area of Exceptional Significance .

I live almost 20 miles from Ice Mountain and to me it is a tragedy that this sort of development is being considered in an County Natural Heritage Area. It's as if that designation means nothing. However, I'm still impressed that almost half the citizens of the borough who participated in the poll indicated that they'd rather forego the $150,000 per annum that was being dangled in front of them than allow this Blair County Natural Heritage Area to be degraded.

[Bill Latchford]

- "SomeThingToSay" - I just can't look at the world as pessimistically....I have to much to live for and to much to get accomplished in the small amount of time we are given here. It is a gift and I would rather look at it a bit more optimistically. Anyhow you do make a fine point with your analogy. You are also right about the petition thing with naming the cause you are looking for signatures for.
Does anyone know the subsidies that were given to Gamesa in Spain? That is where the company formed like 20 years ago or something like that. I just wonder what made them get into the Wind Turbine business that long ago. Maybe somewhere somehow it was thought that Wind Energy could be the helping hand that would get us to stop using so much of our fossil fuel reserves. Who Knows? Maybe it has just become to lucrative that the money blinds the developers. But in this case it looks like most of the voting public from the last election would like to pursue this and maybe feel like Tyrone is helping out and why not have some monetary benefits from it also.
As much as SS is impressed with those who voted against it I am impressed with all that just came out to vote. You have done your civic duty and participated in what is one of America’s great rights. The right to have your voice heard. I am glad those who were unable to raise their voices up had a chance to finally do so. God Bless America :flag:

[Ice Man]

[quote="Bill Latchford"]- " I am glad those who were unable to raise their voices up had a chance to finally do so. [/quote]

:huh: Unable to raise their voices up? What stopped 'em?

Maybe they could have shared their reasons with SAVE ICE MOUNTAIN. No one ever heard from them. They did not bother to organize a forum. SAVE ICE MOUNTAIN is not motivated by $$$$$$$$$$. Perhaps they didn't speak up because they had no clue what to say and had no data to back up their beliefs. Perhaps they, like Councilman Latchford, simply don't value Blair County's natural heritage.

Gamesa has a lot more financial and PR clout than SAVE ICE MOUNTAIN.

No one knows what motivated those people who voted to develop Ice Mt into a windplant, but some may have been motivated by $$$$$$$$$$.

I'll always have more respect for people who volunteer their time freely, without regard for monetary compensation, as did all the SAVE ICE MOUNTAIN volunteers. God bless America!!!!!!!!!! :flag: :flag: :flag:

Gamesa had a full-time PR guy sending press releases to the media on a regular basis. All the Gamesa people who attended the council meetings and Town Meetings at the high school last spring and the senior center last winter were paid to do so.

I wonder how many people would have voted for the windplant if money wasn't being offered? :jester:

[Ice Man]

Look at how much of our tax dollars go to windplants

I encourage everyone to look at the Executive Summary of the report http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/ ... xecsum.pdf, pdf page 6 of 8. That page includes a table of subsidies paid per mwh of generation. A quick summary (subset) below:

Coal is paid $.44 per mwh
Nat. Gas: $.25 per mwh
Biomass: $.89 per mwh
Nuclear: $1.59 per mwh
Hydro: $.67 per mwh
Solar: $24.34 per mwh
Landfill gas: $1.37 per mwh
Wind: $23.37 per mwh

[Bill Latchford]

[quote="Bill Latchford"]- " I am glad those who were unable to raise their voices up had a chance to finally do so.

:huh: Unable to raise their voices up? What stopped 'em?

- Oh please, who wants to go straight up against a group of people who picket and put up big signs depicting their overwhelming cause, and then whose spokesperson comes across as quite overbearing at meetings and such. Your cause is your cause, we all have them now and again.

Maybe they could have shared their reasons with SAVE ICE MOUNTAIN. No one ever heard from them. They did not bother to organize a forum.

- Because who in their right mind wants to go up against a group of people when there is a group already doing the job. All they had to do was sit back and wait until hopefully a plan came together that would allow them to be heard.

No one knows what motivated those people who voted to develop Ice Mt into a windplant, but some may have been motivated by $$$$$$$$$$.

- The only people benefiting from the monies of the Borough land lease would be the Borough residents. Whom, if the lease goes through, I hope to give some say in how it is spent. I might add that there are probably Snyder Township landowners that are benefiting I would assume.

I'll always have more respect for people who volunteer their time freely, without regard for monetary compensation.

- Is there another form of volunteering? :huh:
Maybe I can help with that....."By definition, a volunteer worker does not get paid or receive compensation for services rendered other than sometimes reimbursement for out-of-pocket expenses."
[/quote]

[Bill Latchford]

Look at how much of our tax dollars go to windplants

I encourage everyone to look at the Executive Summary of the report http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/ ... xecsum.pdf, pdf page 6 of 8. That page includes a table of subsidies paid per mwh of generation. A quick summary (subset) below:

Coal is paid $.44 per mwh
Nat. Gas: $.25 per mwh
Biomass: $.89 per mwh
Nuclear: $1.59 per mwh
Hydro: $.67 per mwh
Solar: $24.34 per mwh
Landfill gas: $1.37 per mwh
Wind: $23.37 per mwh

- Isn't this like the 3rd or 4th time we have seen this? Lets not forget the low interest loans that are handed out like candy also, like what was given to the Coal Power plant being built in Karthaus in Clearfield County in the amount of like $530 million. All utilities are subsidized in many different ways. It's Just another way to point out / spin just the negatives.